Ways LFR can be fixed in Mists!

85 Draenei Shaman
1870
For the first tier of mists, I think it would be very unfortunate if the first time normal mode raiders enter the new dungeons, they immediately see and kill all the bosses, even if those bosses are LFR easy mode. For most raiders (correct me if I am wrong), the joy of raiding comes from the gradual accomplishments and the rush of seeing and learning a new fight once the previous ones have been cleared. This is NOT the same as attempting the same fight but tuned up or with an additional mechanic. There is something to be said for the atmosphere of entering a foreign and hostile environment for the first time WITHOUT the expectation of victory. It adds PACING, an essential aspect to all games, ESPECIALLY story driven rpgs like WoW. LFR is great for the people its intended for, but when it feels like a necessity due to a slight gear upgrade in order to progress through normals, you end up with the same kind of burnout that plagued Wrath of the Lich King.

I have several suggestions to fix this problem

1) No loot from LFR. - Obviously not a desirable option. It is generally understood that the players who LFR is designed for don't just want to "see the content", they also want some purples to go with that content. As someone who does have the available time to raid normal modes I subjectively wish that LFR did not award purples but understand that my opinion is perhaps not what is best for the general WoW community. HOWEVER, it is possible to at least keep the gear from being awarded until several weeks/ possibly a month after the raids are released. This would prevent the weekly gear grind by raiders but would still probably see people running them for practice possibly.

2)Have LFR share raid lockout with heroic and normal modes - Again I don't know how feasible this one would be to implement, especially with the ability to join a LFR at any stage in the progression. I still think that its possible and this would completely eliminate raiders from going to LFR on their mains. However, most raiders would still probably experience the raid for the FIRST time in LFR, before their guild has gotten their raid group completely together, and then would never go back to it. (obviously the top of the line guilds would ignore LFR in almost all scenarios) This also has the problem of still being an alt gear up fest and perhaps ironically could end up with your alt better geared than your main depending on your dice luck.

3)Make LFR hard - not normal mode hard obviously, but the current difficulty is laughable. I have not yet wiped and have run it multiple times with some of the worst players I have ever seen take part in a raid. Now there is some inherent difficulty baked in to the LFR model of anonymity. Taking those same 25 players and adding ventrilo and the accountablity and social ties of a guild would skyrocket their capability. But there is still a tuning that would mean that only the LFRs that are filled with semi-competent people could clear the WHOLE instance. I firmly believe (though perhaps I am wrong) that the casual players who LFR is designed for still want a challenge and that the current tuning of LFR does not provide that. Again, this wouldn't really solve the problem but it would at least make running LFR more tolerable and better paced..

4)Release LFR later than normal and heroic modes!-This is i believe the best way to find a harmonic place for LFR in the WoW raiding model. Even if LFR is released at the same time as the normal and heroic mode raids, the people who will have leveled fast enough and geared up fast enough to join it will undoubtedly be the raiders themselves, not the intended demographic for LFR, and almost certainly there to get the gear and get that leg up for the regular raids. If we delay LFR's release for several weeks or possibly a month or two after the regular raids are starting up, hopefully raiders will be already comfortably progressing through normals and will only use LFR when they are bored or perhaps are behind in the gear department. This enables the raiders who want to feel that pacing exclusively in the challenging raids to ignore LFR, and the casual players who LFR was designed for will still be able to clear the content while it is relevant (towards the end of when its relevant but still)

To sum this all up, LFR should NOT feel like a stepping stone for middle of the road RAIDERS to the regular mode raiding, and it should DEFINATELY not feel like a requirement in terms of gear to run every week during the first weeks of raid progression. This would destroy the pacing of these instances that I honestly almost always love that blizzard has designed. By delaying the release of LFR, i believe that blizzard would preserve the content's availability to those it is meant for, without burdening and burning out raiders.
Edited by Gerbile on 2/11/2012 10:04 PM PST
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Best way to fix LFR: remove it altogether.


Not trolling, very serious. It's a waste. Hate it and wish it wasn't there.
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85 Draenei Shaman
1870
yea but its not going anywhere so best to find a way to live with it
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It's been wildly successful and it might need a few tweaks. Offering bad suggestions and then showing a reasonable suggestion doesn't change that. We're slackers and just killed NM Deathwing; I can't really say that LFR spoiled that for me. Of course, that's really hard to tell because the DW fight is so freakin' tedious and silly.

We want the better raiders in LFR, btw. They show the poorer players how to play. Carrying the raid is both helpful and instructive to weaker players.
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85 Draenei Shaman
1870
...And ive offered tweaks. I believe each suggestion has its merits even if I like number 5 the most. My argument is that raiders should not be FORCED to run LFR. but be able to run it if they wish. The idea that raiders should be forced to carry the poorer players in LFR is a very selfish one on your part.
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85 Night Elf Druid
10665
remove loot, putting LFR points and a LFR vendor. Make a whole set of BiS LFR gear take like 15 resets to obtain.

There. no more QQsomeonestolemycontent, and Blizzard can get full subs until they are ready to release the next set of loot pinatas

I honestly like LFR because it gives the honest super casuals a chance to seeing the content (at least the models), and it really exposes the loot!@#$%s that pretends to not care about loot. With that said, they really need to tweak loot balance so raiders aren't force to do them.
Edited by Avermra on 2/12/2012 9:06 AM PST
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100 Draenei Paladin
11120
so you don't like the looting system or you don't like that hard core raiders have to play the raids several lvls to get the top gear in game?

I do like the suggestion about not drooping loot, i think it shod be more like the token system that way u kill the boos u get a toke save your tokens and buy the gear.

as for playing the raid for the excitement of it even raiders are not going to find the raids exciting after about the second run and for them after that first to second run its all about loot.
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46 Gnome Warlock
600
I am a raider and I dont consider LFR a raid. Its really just a long dungeon that requires 25 people to que. You dont even need 25 to complete it. LFR is no harder than BH. Raiding is about progression. No serious raider counts LFR as progression. There is really no way to fix LFR besides removing it but the truth of the matter is that if you remove it, people will complain. If you leave it in people will complain no matter how simplified and "fair" you make it. What is fair to one is not fair to another so there will always be complaints. I use LFR to fill in holes in my gear that wont drop in normal/heroic raids. I personally wont be in MOP at all. Im just hanging around till I get my heroic DW mount in the off chance that it becomes a rare drop after MOP hits. I might come back after MOP but i honestly dont know. The game is constantly getting dumbed down more and more.
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85 Draenei Shaman
1870
as for playing the raid for the excitement of it even raiders are not going to find the raids exciting after about the second run and for them after that first to second run its all about loot.


This is more or less exactly my point. The first time is always the best time. After that you're just chasing the dragon so to speak. (or the purples) My suggestions change that first time from being a mindless zerg fest to the well paced and engaging experiences that WoW raids have historically been.
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90 Gnome Death Knight
13595
1) no. 2) no. 3) no. and... oh yeah... 4) no.

The entire purpose behind LFR was so casuals can see content. Tying it to raid lockouts, giving it hard modes.. not the motives behind lfr to begin with.

Everything you want can be found in normal raiding already.

The only thing that I would change of LFR is if someone leaves who rolls need- the roll gets voided, and if they leave before rolling, it takes that into account and triggers rolls faster. Maybe some sort of system like bgs that you can vote down on people who tunnel vision or prematurely start encounters so they have less chance at loot for being toolsheds. But thats about it.
Edited by Epidriza on 2/12/2012 11:57 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
4570
It hasn't been wildly succesful - blizz is losing subs.

LFR should be used for catching up with the current top tier and not as a means to trivailize the top tier raids. Whether WoW's developers figure this out before being tossed out - is an open question. From the comments that Bashiok wrote about the 99% I think the answer is no.
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56 Undead Mage
9335
LFR should be used for catching up with the current top tier and not as a means to trivialize the top tier raids.


I agree with this statement. With respect to the last raid tier before a new expansion, I'd support having the LFR be available for it around the same time as the X.0 pre-expansion patch comes out, maybe a little before.
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100 Troll Hunter
12880
02/12/2012 11:55 AMPosted by Epidriza
The entire purpose behind LFR was so casuals can see content.


No, the "real reason" behind Looking For Loot was so that people who actually have limited play time (not bad players/people who say they don't/people who call themselves casual) to see content. But in reality it's made for the bad playerbase to get free gear. Their "content" is gear, not the actual content they're doing.
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90 Human Warrior
16790
02/12/2012 11:55 AMPosted by Epidriza
The entire purpose behind LFR was so casuals can see content. Tying it to raid lockouts, giving it hard modes.. not the motives behind lfr to begin with.


I fail to see how having it share a lockout with Normal/Heroic hurts those motives.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
BnB
15255
02/12/2012 02:31 PMPosted by Turagent
The entire purpose behind LFR was so casuals can see content. Tying it to raid lockouts, giving it hard modes.. not the motives behind lfr to begin with.


I fail to see how having it share a lockout with Normal/Heroic hurts those motives.




It doesn't share lockouts so people can rerun it to help out casual friends. Working as intended.
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1 Tauren Paladin
0
It's been wildly successful and it might need a few tweaks. Offering bad suggestions and then showing a reasonable suggestion doesn't change that. We're slackers and just killed NM Deathwing; I can't really say that LFR spoiled that for me. Of course, that's really hard to tell because the DW fight is so freakin' tedious and silly.

We want the better raiders in LFR, btw. They show the poorer players how to play. Carrying the raid is both helpful and instructive to weaker players.

So laughable.

Carrying teaches nothing. Learning isn't being carried. Learning is wiping and learning why you wiped. LFR is nothing more than a 4 piece gear up joke for the regular raiders.

You want us to help you? Try stepping outside of LFR.
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1 Tauren Paladin
0
02/12/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Blabbit


I fail to see how having it share a lockout with Normal/Heroic hurts those motives.




It doesn't share lockouts so people can rerun it to help out casual friends. Working as intended.

I agree there. However, it teaches nothing. You can ignore almost every mechanic and still down a boss. Sure, one or two die, but it's not a wipe. The only wipe I've seen in LFR? Random dps pulls boss while rounding trash on Zon'ozz. There is no teachable moments because there are barely any consequences to ignoring mechanics.
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42 Tauren Paladin
11525


1) No loot from LFR. - Obviously not a desirable option. It is generally understood that the players who LFR is designed for don't just want to "see the content", they also want some purples to go with that content. As someone who does have the available time to raid normal modes I subjectively wish that LFR did not award purples but understand that my opinion is perhaps not what is best for the general WoW community. HOWEVER, it is possible to at least keep the gear from being awarded until several weeks/ possibly a month after the raids are released. This would prevent the weekly gear grind by raiders but would still probably see people running them for practice possibly.


and all the baddies are going to QQ because it's unfair they get no loot.


2)Have LFR share raid lockout with heroic and normal modes - Again I don't know how feasible this one would be to implement, especially with the ability to join a LFR at any stage in the progression. I still think that its possible and this would completely eliminate raiders from going to LFR on their mains. However, most raiders would still probably experience the raid for the FIRST time in LFR, before their guild has gotten their raid group completely together, and then would never go back to it. (obviously the top of the line guilds would ignore LFR in almost all scenarios) This also has the problem of still being an alt gear up fest and perhaps ironically could end up with your alt better geared than your main depending on your dice luck.


Not going to happen. you have no right to choose who can go or not. If a raider wants to go in LFR because he's bored or for fun or to help group or any other reasons , he/she should have the right to do so.


3)Make LFR hard - not normal mode hard obviously, but the current difficulty is laughable. I have not yet wiped and have run it multiple times with some of the worst players I have ever seen take part in a raid. Now there is some inherent difficulty baked in to the LFR model of anonymity. Taking those same 25 players and adding ventrilo and the accountablity and social ties of a guild would skyrocket their capability. But there is still a tuning that would mean that only the LFRs that are filled with semi-competent people could clear the WHOLE instance. I firmly believe (though perhaps I am wrong) that the casual players who LFR is designed for still want a challenge and that the current tuning of LFR does not provide that. Again, this wouldn't really solve the problem but it would at least make running LFR more tolerable and better paced..


That's not possible...You cannot ask 25 strangers to raid almost as the same as progression guilds . This is why LFr is easy. Yet people cannot click on this damn button on ultraxion , if it was like even normal mode , the group would wipe after the second heroic will.


4)Release LFR later than normal and heroic modes!-This is i believe the best way to find a harmonic place for LFR in the WoW raiding model. Even if LFR is released at the same time as the normal and heroic mode raids, the people who will have leveled fast enough and geared up fast enough to join it will undoubtedly be the raiders themselves, not the intended demographic for LFR, and almost certainly there to get the gear and get that leg up for the regular raids. If we delay LFR's release for several weeks or possibly a month or two after the regular raids are starting up, hopefully raiders will be already comfortably progressing through normals and will only use LFR when they are bored or perhaps are behind in the gear department. This enables the raiders who want to feel that pacing exclusively in the challenging raids to ignore LFR, and the casual players who LFR was designed for will still be able to clear the content while it is relevant (towards the end of when its relevant but still)


bad idea..that would even amplify difference between hard core and casual ( casual would have to wait weeks before seeing content...kind of unfair).
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90 Pandaren Warrior
BnB
15255
Its not meant to teach, its seriously just there for the casuals. Trying to make it about more not only will likely never happen it would have no good benefits even. These are more than likely people you never wanted in your "real" raids anyways.
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1 Tauren Paladin
0
02/12/2012 11:55 AMPosted by Epidriza
The entire purpose behind LFR was so casuals can see content. Tying it to raid lockouts, giving it hard modes.. not the motives behind lfr to begin with.

While I agree we shouldn't tie lockouts have you read the forums lately?

If all the time strapped player carried about was seeing content we wouldn't have so many "QQ LFR Stole My Loot" threads. You guys care as much and some times more about loot than raiders. If LFR is solely about seeing content lose all the loot within it. You don't need the loot. You just want it. You even stated all you want LFR for is to see content.

Make a choice. Do you want to see content and get loot which will involve drama and repeated abuse of the Report/Kick features? Or do you just wish to see content and remove the trivial drama that comes with the loot?
That sounds simple, but it seems most that love LFR are greedy and want it all.
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