Rogues in the Mists: Pandaria Class Changes

90 Gnome Rogue
10645
Pretty sure we'll still have Throw and FoK, and I saw Deadly Throw is becoming a talent.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14310
FoK and Deadly Throw for sure, but I figured Throw would disappear with the ranged weapon. It'd be nice if it doesn't. I like throwing weapons at critters...
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88 Gnome Rogue
2260
Please don't misunderstand, I'm sure we'll have FoK. I said: RIP Mut FoK.

Right now, Sub/Combat FoK have a chance to apply a poison. Mut FoK has a chance to apply three, MH/OH/Thrown, and a fourth from Deadly Brew. Now lose the thrown weapons slot and put DB in the MoP talents and what do you get?

RIP Mut FoK.
Edited by Madcapmcgee on 2/13/2012 11:47 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14310
I had to bid an early farewell to Mut FoK when I finally got to go Subtlety. It was a sad parting.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
The Q&A you linked states that both the damage poison and the utility poison are likely to be on both weapons at once.

Hm. You're referring to this response from Watcher in the Nov. 9 chat, yeah?

Our current intent is to allow players to use one damaging poison and one utility poison at a time in Mists. Currently, rogue damage is so dependent on dual-damage poisons that, as you note, running a utility poison entails a drawback that is often too large to justify the benefits. Allowing damage poisons to compete against each other, and utility poisons to do likewise, should result in more interesting choices. The logic is similar to what led to splitting up warlock Banes and Curses.

The poisons will effectively be on both weapons at once, and running Deadly should essentially duplicate the current functionality of dual Instant+Deadly, allowing you to focus on which secondary poison best suits your current situation.

The second paragraph isn't all that clearly worded, but yeah, the "both weapons at once" reference suggests that we're not going to be applying poisons to one weapon or the other; instead, it'll be more like we're "activating" a poison. (Much in the way we can only have the effects of one battle elixir and one guardian elixir active at a time, we'd only be able to have the effects of one damage poison and one utility poison active at a time.) Thus the tooltip on the new poisons, such as Leeching, which begins with "Coats your weapons" as opposed to "Coats a weapon" (as our current poison tooltips read).

It could even turn out that poisons work independently of the weapons themselves -- which might in turn mean the end of PPM poisons entirely (everything would just become PPH, which would admittedly be a lot simpler, and could entirely redefine requirements for what types of weapons we need to have in each hand).

Edit: Just realized that one of my bullet points specifically talks about applying poisons to weapons. If that was what you were getting at, Madcap -- that I'd messed up my bullet point -- then... thanks. :) I'll fix it now.
Edited by Rfeann on 2/13/2012 12:41 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
10885
THIS ISN'T FAIR......I'M GOING TO MISS MY THORI'DAL, THE STAR'S FURY SO HARD! I'M GOING TO BE SO MAD THAT I'M GOING TO THROW MY COMB AT THE WINDOW!
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98 Blood Elf Death Knight
6020
Are throwing weapons going away for good? I suppose there won't be any use for them by any class, but this means we'll be in a world without shuriken. RIP Sure-Fire Shuriken, et al.


Now this brings back memories... The Yasnaki returning dagger from Legends of Kesmai.
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88 Gnome Rogue
2260
My pleasure.

02/13/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Rfeann
It could even turn out that poisons work independently of the weapons themselves -- which might in turn mean the end of PPM poisons entirely (everything would just become PPH, which would admittedly be a lot simpler, and could entirely redefine requirements for what types of weapons we need to have in each hand).


Possibly. The working theory in the MoP forums though is the opposite, that it'll be a PPM mechanic. Why? Because if it's on both weapons (that is, on the MH as well), then with PPH mechanics Assassination might be tempted towards a fast MH, depending on how damage from poison procs stack up against damage dependent on the MH weapon.

It could almost be the Guile / Gauche conundrum again.
Edited by Madcapmcgee on 2/14/2012 1:27 AM PST
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100 Human Rogue
9415
So, we only get 1 dps talent out of all the choices. I guess this is a PvP world now.

Wolf
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
Possibly. The working theory in the MoP forums though is the opposite, that it'll be a PPM mechanic. Why? Because if it's on both weapons (that is, on the MH as well), then with PPH mechanics Assassination might be tempted towards a fast MH, depending on how damage from poison procs stack up against damage dependent on the MH weapon.

It could almost be the Guile / Gauche conundrum again.

OK, I clearly need to start checking out the Mists forum. Between this and the epic rogue design threads over there, there's a lot worth reading that I haven't been.

My heart instinctively went to all-poisons-may-become-PPH because of the implied simplicity; it would remove weapon speed from (part of) the min/max equation, which feels like a good thematic match with Blizz's general Mists goal of removing overcomplicated or bloated mechanics that create false choices. But I don't even remotely pretend to have thought any of this through or considered deeper potential implications for rotations, balance, loot tables and the like.

I think I'll make a new post to respond to Wolf's comment, so this one doesn't become a novelette.
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
So, we only get 1 dps talent out of all the choices. I guess this is a PvP world now.

Wolf


It's not necessarily a PvP world.

Right now, in the PvE game, you're forced to spec specific ways and choose multiple "Increases damage of X" type talents along the way. There really isn't an option to explore more of the utility type talents in many cases, because it hinders your performance.

The goal in the new talent system is to ensure that players already have everything they need to put out performance that is on par with every other rogue, even if they choose to spec differently. The new talent trees are all about utility.

So, I understand that the utility will be more valuable in a PvP environment, where it is required, but the intention of the new talent system is in the right spot. It's just not necessarily going to be implemented as well as some would like. The direction that Blizz is headed is to ensure that the PvE crowd gets to perform well AND have some extra utility that they can't afford to pick up currently without sacrificing their performance.



Edit: It's a novel idea, imo. I just hope it pans out as smoothly as they hope it does, 'cause I'm a bit skeptical... :S
Edited by Sheevah on 2/14/2012 8:06 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
Ya, what Shee said.

Amidst the vast ocean of unknowns that lies between where we sit and where Mists will take us, one of the largest factors that will impact the relevance of the new talent trees is boss fight design. We have absolutely no idea right now what raid fights in Mists will be like, or what skills they'll require us to use. It's easy to look at a few of the rogue talent tiers in the (soon-to-be-updated) talent calculator and say, "None of these matters to me in PvE," but we can only base that judgement on Cataclysm raid fights. For all we know, Mists raid fights could well *require* a level of utility we haven't seen since Faction Champions.
Edited by Rfeann on 2/14/2012 8:41 AM PST
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
02/14/2012 08:30 AMPosted by Rfeann
For all we know, Mists raid fights could well *require* a level of utility we haven't seen since Faction Champions.


I might actually raid if this were to happen.
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100 Human Rogue
9415
I understand it is all about Utility. None of them serve a purpose in Boss fights, except for the talents in the last row. Which, in my mind, is a waste.

If they had a talent that worked in PvP, a talent that worked in PvE, and a talent that could be used for either in every row that would be fine with me. But, to pick talents in the first 5 rows that do absolutely nothing for me in PvE just to get to the one that works in PvE is stupid imo.

Wolf
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85 Worgen Rogue
6195
I would love to see variations in playstyle. An ability to put out amazing dps in all three specs wouldn't bother me at all if there were ways for each individual player to come up with their own strats on how to maximize it.

I'd love to see a situation where your dps is doing fine, just like you thought it would, then someone of the same spec and class comes in with something new and blows your dps away. Afterwards, you talk to them, learn their strat and work it into your own.

Also, the concept of having certain utilities necessary for fights seems like a very interesting idea. I only got into raiding recently, in FL.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
02/14/2012 08:41 AMPosted by Wolfshade
If they had a talent that worked in PvP, a talent that worked in PvE, and a talent that could be used for either in every row that would be fine with me. But, to pick talents in the first 5 rows that do absolutely nothing for me in PvE just to get to the one that works in PvE is stupid imo.


And I'm sure that, if the talent trees actually work out that way, Blizz would consider their experiment a failure as well. Their goal isn't to make talent choices irrelevant to the majority of the playerbase that prefers PvE over PvP; it's to make them actually be choices, as opposed to the "you must pick these or you suck" non-choice we have now about 98% of the time.

But, again, keep in mind we know nothing of boss fight design in Mists yet. We don't know whether these talents will or won't prove useful in the future from an end-game PvE standpoint. So while it's logical to be skeptical, it's also far too early to pass judgement.

For my part, though, I do wanna say: As impossible as this scenario is, if it turned out that every single rogue talent tier was completely useless to me from a PvE raiding standpoint and that every single talent option impacted my DPS equally (which is to say, not at all), then truthfully? I'd think that's really cool. It would mean I'd have complete freedom to pick any of them I wanted, or none of them at all, and to use them for other purposes -- questing, random PvP events, soloing dungeons -- without having to go through the time and hassle of respeccing my character just so I could do those things optimally.
Edited by Rfeann on 2/14/2012 8:54 AM PST
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
02/14/2012 08:41 AMPosted by Wolfshade
I understand it is all about Utility. None of them serve a purpose in Boss fights, except for the talents in the last row. Which, in my mind, is a waste.


1) You don't know the mechanics of panda boss fights, as Rfeann mentioned.

2) There is more to PvE than boss fights, and the utility could come in handy, even if they aren't used much during a boss fight.

If they had a talent that worked in PvP, a talent that worked in PvE, and a talent that could be used for either in every row that would be fine with me. But, to pick talents in the first 5 rows that do absolutely nothing for me in PvE just to get to the one that works in PvE is stupid imo.


If they did it that way, there wouldn't much "choice" going into your talent specs.

We'd be in the same land of cookie cutters we currently are and have been in the past.
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90 Troll Warlock
3330
lol wow this is gonna be crazy, panda ninjas..... i cant wait to respec
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85 Undead Rogue
1630

I'd love to see a situation where your dps is doing fine, just like you thought it would, then someone of the same spec and class comes in with something new and blows your dps away. Afterwards, you talk to them, learn their strat and work it into your own.


And then it gets posted on the forums that ____ strat gets you X DPS. And then everyone copies that strat/rotation and everyone has to do it that way to get the top DPS needed. Then everyone is as cookie cutter as we are now still.

I would love to see a situation you described as above but as long as there is the real time collaboration we have (forums, 3rd party websites, etc) there will always be a "best" way to do which yields the best results. How many threads have we seen about Rupture being included in the Combat rotation? That is what.. 100DPS out thousands upon thousands? And if you mess up at all with Rupture, it will hurt you? Risk vs Reward does not make sense there for many people- but it is still technically a DPS increase if managed properly. If I recall, one rogue said their guild will not even look at you if you do not use Rupture (pending proper debuffs were present). Even though the gain is so minimal it isn't worth it for many people to include trying to manage it.

We are a DPS class and that is all we do. People much smarter than me and better at math than me will always come up with the maximum theoretical DPS output and people will always copy it because it always gives you a larger ceiling to do what your class was designed to do best: DPS



I would personally like to see raid encounters where utility is taken into consideration. CCs, debuffs, spell steals/reflections, Distraction, etc.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
5775
I would honestly love to see more stuff like the legendary dagger quest chain in Mists, where we have to stealth through mobs and actually use our utility talents to accomplish something.

In Wrath, utility was mainly for PvP, there was no actual CC in it. Cata came in hard with needing CC, but towards the end, there isn't a call for it really in DS. Maybe one or two fights, but not much. It would be nice if we had to actually use them on adds that spawn, maybe have to throw a distract on the ground for a tank to pick up the adds before they wipe the raid. Sap a pat that hasn't been engaged yet to give the group some breathing room, play the class how we feel with utility and, if there is more than one rogue in the group, each one brings something beneficial to the table.
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