Shiv Changes

90 Human Rogue
17275
02/17/2012 06:57 PMPosted by Duskbreaker
I'm discussing the fact that the stacks are dispellable. This is just hyprocrisy from the blue, because noone would use an 8 sec cooldown cleanse to remove one stack of poison that will be re-applied.


You do know its only a 20% chance to apply right?


No, he's right. Why would you Cleanse 1 stack when you can just as easily Cleanse the stun it creates at the end. No healer is going to waste Cleanses on the stack. Not intentionally anyway.


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85 Draenei Death Knight
3415
02/17/2012 07:08 PMPosted by Kop


You do know its only a 20% chance to apply right?


No, he's right. Why would you Cleanse 1 stack when you can just as easily Cleanse the stun it creates at the end. No healer is going to waste Cleanses on the stack. Not intentionally anyway.


So either way...its worth to clense then?

I took his point as "Why would I clense the rogue stun over say fear or deep freeze"
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90 Troll Rogue
13105
02/17/2012 07:08 PMPosted by Kop


You do know its only a 20% chance to apply right?


No, he's right. Why would you Cleanse 1 stack when you can just as easily Cleanse the stun it creates at the end. No healer is going to waste Cleanses on the stack. Not intentionally anyway.




Well you could see a 4 stack and be like 'oh no stun comin, better dispel."


I don't really see your concern here.
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85 Draenei Death Knight
3415

Consider that poisons are dispellable, and you need five stack of Paralytic to get a stun off. It seems reasonably likely that the Paralytic stun will have a different dynamic in PvP than Mace Stun had. If your target is dropping stacks or you aren't able to make consistent enough contact to get stacks on faster than they drop off you may have some trouble getting the stun to land. It will also introduce the dynamic of trying to 'plan' your kidney shots around your Paralytic, so you aren't overlapping stuns.



Rogues won't just be able to plan a kidney shot around a paralytic proc. They will be able to plan a SHADOW DANCE around it, which means ambush spam, a full cheap shot to follow the paralytic stun and THEN a half kidney. That's 11 seconds of stunlock while also facing the sub rogue's top dps burst.

That's just too strong- a 11 second stunlock should not even be a possibility in this game. Mace stuns, for all their randomness, didn't last 11 seconds.


I hear there are these things called trinkets that break stuns....

Again you cant just look at skills in a vaccume there is a count to most every skill....heck even your bubble which makes you immune to all damage now has a counter (mass dispell)
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85 Draenei Death Knight
3415


Rogues won't just be able to plan a kidney shot around a paralytic proc. They will be able to plan a SHADOW DANCE around it, which means ambush spam, a full cheap shot to follow the paralytic stun and THEN a half kidney. That's 11 seconds of stunlock while also facing the sub rogue's top dps burst.

That's just too strong- a 11 second stunlock should not even be a possibility in this game. Mace stuns, for all their randomness, didn't last 11 seconds.


I hear there are these things called trinkets that break stuns....

Again you cant just look at skills in a vaccume there is a count to most every skill....heck even your bubble which makes you immune to all damage now has a counter (mass dispell)


And to follow up we first have to GET to 5 stacks at a 20% proc rate while we have NO snare other than DT IF we take it or the shiv 4sec root
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85 Draenei Death Knight
3415
02/17/2012 07:33 PMPosted by Kàylenn
/facepalm- so lets make polymorph 12 seconds and fear 14 seconds- after all, there are trinkets and they are never down, right?


Para CS KS

thats 3 skills for 11sec if EVERYTHING goes right

And you are comparing them to 1 skill of 2 classes?
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85 Draenei Death Knight
3415
02/17/2012 07:36 PMPosted by Duskbreaker
/facepalm- so lets make polymorph 12 seconds and fear 14 seconds- after all, there are trinkets and they are never down, right?


Para CS KS

thats 3 skills for 11sec if EVERYTHING goes right

And you are comparing them to 1 skill of 2 classes?


Also CS requires stealth...why dont people get this....
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85 Draenei Death Knight
3415
02/17/2012 07:39 PMPosted by Kàylenn
I said in a SHADOW DANCE, if you don't understand you can cheap shot out of stealth in a shadow dance, you don't know anything about rogues.





02/17/2012 07:30 PMPosted by Duskbreaker
which means ambush spam, a full cheap shot to follow the paralytic stun and THEN a half kidney


So during our ShD when you are not KSed you are just going to LET us get behind you?
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85 Human Paladin
3445

So during our ShD when you are not KSed you are just going to LET us get behind you?


My scenario:

1. Wait for paralytic proc.
2. Shadow dance.
3. Get behind stunned target.
4. Spam ambush until paralytic passes.
5. Cheap shot.
6. More ambush spam til shadow dance passes (not sure if they will have the ShD glyph in MoP), then backstab.
7. Kidney shot.
8. More backstabs.

So I would be stunned in that scenario and thus unable to stop you from getting behind me.
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85 Draenei Death Knight
3415

So during our ShD when you are not KSed you are just going to LET us get behind you?


My scenario:

1. Wait for paralytic proc.
2. Shadow dance.
3. Get behind stunned target.
4. Spam ambush until paralytic passes.
5. Cheap shot.
6. More ambush spam til shadow dance passes (not sure if they will have the ShD glyph in MoP), then backstab.
7. Kidney shot.
8. More backstabs.

So I would be stunned in that scenario and thus unable to stop you from getting behind me.


Solution

1) After Para procs and you see the rogue pop ShD Trinket
2) Turn and stun rogue with HoJ
3) Get distance
4) Since the rogues ShD (which lasts 8sec) is basically nullified since he now has to stun you and get behind you to continue ambush
5) Profit

Again cant compare skills in a vaccume

In addition you say "wait for para poison proc" as if its nothing...

20% is actually a pretty damn small chance (which is should be) and again when using it we HAVE NO CRIP POISON thus you will have full movment speed out side of a DT or a shive (10sec CD)
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
11080
At times...yes

Afterall if that stun was on your healer who is about to die it wont matter if you save your dispell for a fear since your friend is going to bite it anyway.


I am a healer - holy paladin. If the stun is on me, it doesn't matter anyway. And I wasn't discussing the fact that the stun is dispellable. That would be a good dispel. I'm discussing the fact that the stacks are dispellable. This is just hyprocrisy from the blue, because noone would use an 8 sec cooldown cleanse to remove one stack of poison that will be re-applied.


Depends on the average time it takes to stack, the paladin's spec, the current situation and the comp of the rogue's team. Also going to depend on whether or not they stick more utility on cleanse.

-If it takes longer than 8s seconds to stack this poison, then using cleanse would be a valid option is some scenarios.

-As a ret paladin I wouldn't have too much of an issue using cleanse to prevent a teammate from eating the stun and I'm sure prots feel the same way. It's not like I have much else to use cleanse on. This is assuming that AoS doesn't come back in glyph form or as a ret passive, even then there might be situations where I would have no issue in destroying the paralytic poison stack.

-If the paralytic poison stun is about to go off and your in a situation where having a teammate get stunned could result in things going badly for your team. Then yeah, you're probably going to want to prevent it even if that means pointing cleanse on CD and not having access to it for other magic, poison or disease debuffs that you might want to remove.

-If the rogue isn't part of a team that brings lots of magic debuffs (like RPM), that opens up more opportunities to use cleanse against paralytic poison without having to let other debuffs run their course.

On another note, having nothing to do with utility poisons. I've noticed that deadly indeed isn't going to stack but that brings up a new concern. Speaking from a ret mindset, I've noticed that while a DoT certainly causes issues in PvP, that usually isn't a huge deciding factor if the issue is damage vs damage. I'm aware it might be possible for both deadly and instant to be close on damage but I have doubts that there will be enough of difference between the two and rogues will end up in the situation that rets found themselves in when we had multiple dps seals. As in one poison, likely deadly will become the only dps poison that rogues touch while instant is largely ignored. Are the devs aware of this potential outcome and are they considering potentially, redesigning instant to have a unique niche that deadly can't fill (other than not getting in the way of CC)?
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11120
Drel, you may wanna hop over here for a couple mins to catch yourself up on the poison changes -- there's been a lot of new info over the past 24 hours:


Doesn't change anything, in pve you are always going to use leaching because it is the only one that has any effect on anything in a pve enviroment. Everything else applies to the boss and will be immune.

Unless shiv is going to allow these effects to the boss it is just a PVP talent and every rogue will be deadly/leech.

Even if the effect apply to the boss they are too short for any usefulness without gimping dps.


Why would you assume all of this? We don't have access to the Mists Boss Design Crystal Ball (though I did put in a bid for it on eBay); how can any of us know what boss mechanics will face us in the next expansion? The alterations being made not just to the rogue class, but to all classes, can potentially open the door to some pretty wacky fight designs -- possibly involving, just as an example, lots of adds that different raid members will need to pick up or control depending on what abilities they bring to the table.

Who's to say you won't need to use Wound to prevent an add from healing itself for more than the damage your raid can deal to it? Who's to say we won't need to Paralytic-Shiv a mob to keep it from reaching your healer, who is specifically targeted by the design of the fight?

There are a number of raid fights within this expansion -- and many heroic dungeon boss fights as well, before many of us began to outgear the content and trivialize the mechanics -- in which our *existing* utility poisons would have been extremely useful if we felt we had any remote sense of freedom to use them without crippling (ha!) our DPS. (I actually remember, during early attempts on Ammunae in Halls of Origination, being specifically asked by my tank to use Wound Poison on one of my weapons to reduce his self-heal.) In Mists, we'll have that freedom. Heck, even if they *don't* demonstrably alter fight mechanics in the next expansion, just having that freedom will likely lead us to use these poisons in ways our one-dimensional brains can't even imagine right now, because the poor squishy things never had reason to do so.
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85 Draenei Death Knight
3415
02/17/2012 08:57 PMPosted by Rfeann
Who's to say we won't need to Paralytic-Shiv a mob to keep it from reaching your healer, who is specifically targeted by the design of the fight?


Indeed

I can see a fairy common mechanic akin to:

If a mob reachs location X the boss heals to full/gets a massive buff/raid dies/massive AoE etc. etc.
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86 Human Rogue
7595
02/17/2012 09:02 PMPosted by Duskbreaker
Who's to say we won't need to Paralytic-Shiv a mob to keep it from reaching your healer, who is specifically targeted by the design of the fight?


Agreed, see Ragnaros 2.0 =D

I can't foresee myself picking up Paralytic, being on the same line as deadly brew Crippling+any of the other Non-Lethals seems better than No crippling and a Random stun poison. I've gone into more detail about that in my Share Your Build thread though...

(That is not a plug, or is it? *twilight zone music*)
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85 Night Elf Rogue
9225
02/17/2012 09:02 PMPosted by Duskbreaker
If a mob reachs location X the boss heals to full/gets a massive buff/raid dies/massive AoE etc. etc.

Makes me wish we had this already for sappers on Gunship.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11120
I mean, I realize the logic holes in that example -- why would we not KS? Vanish-CS? Gouge, even? But if we're on that mob anyway, Para-Shiv would probably involve the least amount of lost DPS for our stun/root buck, since it doesn't involve using combo points and we'd only "sacrifice" one GCD for it to use the Shiv. It'd also have a much shorter cooldown, allowing it to be used on other mobs more quickly.

Just idly pontificating, I realize, but that's the point: These poisons, and the creative new use of Shiv, offer up some pretty intriguing possibilities for our raid utility that didn't really exist before. Will fights actually call for us to use them? If they do, will we heed the call? Will other classes be able to provide the same utility more easily, rendering them moot for us? Duno. But right now I'm hopeful about the potential.
Edited by Rfeann on 2/17/2012 9:12 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
3705
02/17/2012 06:11 PMPosted by Happygreek
Do you really think I would use my now 8 sec cooldown cleanse to remove a poison that will be re-applied immediately ? Rather than wait and dispel a sheep, fear or deep freeze ?


This was my thought as well. It just won't be viable to cleanse everything that pops up, and rogue stuns are not high on the priority list. It's one of those "you have a choice" things where clearly it's not a choice since the other options are superior.


Hey Daxxarri, very nice and upfront from you to delete my answer ! I'm sorry someone dared to disagree with you.

I also find fun that two people agreed with me, which means my point wasn't stupid, and you just deleted a valid concern. Once again, great job deleting ideas that don't go your way.
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