Shiv Changes

85 Night Elf Rogue
9225
We can all afford to relax a bit, this is a new concept being brainstormed in the pre-alpha pre-beta stage of the expansion, it's not like you'll wake up tomorrow and find rogues stunlocking everything death.

It's actually important that the conceptualization/brainstorming stage -does- go a little overboard, just in terms of design. Then the specifics can be analyzed, debated, tried out, put in the beta, etc.

This change to Shiv and poisons is going to be extraordinary, just in terms of spicing up rogue gameplay. There'll be a point where things change from "this would be cool" to "this will work on live."

It's impossible to know who made posts disappear from our end of things, just because Daxxarri's been posting recently doesn't automatically mean he did it. And if he did, he's got the authority to.

We get the press tour in 3-4 weeks, and eventually the beta (which is going to be humongous based on how many people bought the annual pass), there'll be a ton of time to fix anything that's OP.
Edited by Verelyse on 2/18/2012 12:06 AM PST
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85 Goblin Death Knight
8475
By putting the root on Shiv and leaving the stun on the poison stacking we avoid that entirely, and rogues get a sweet stun that's on the random proc DR instead.


02/17/2012 05:33 PMPosted by Daxxarri
It will also introduce the dynamic of trying to 'plan' your kidney shots around your Paralytic, so you aren't overlapping stuns.


As one of the primary targets that will be sitting in these 10 second seperate dr'd stunlocks, I do not qualify this new ability as "sweet".

I dislike the trend of separating shared diminishing returns because they are "Random Proc," when especially with an ability like this you can stage an entire lockdown of another player.
Edited by Sahtra on 2/18/2012 1:25 AM PST
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90 Troll Rogue
12565


Doesn't change anything, in pve you are always going to use leaching because it is the only one that has any effect on anything in a pve enviroment. Everything else applies to the boss and will be immune.

Unless shiv is going to allow these effects to the boss it is just a PVP talent and every rogue will be deadly/leech.

Even if the effect apply to the boss they are too short for any usefulness without gimping dps.


Why would you assume all of this? We don't have access to the Mists Boss Design Crystal Ball (though I did put in a bid for it on eBay); how can any of us know what boss mechanics will face us in the next expansion? The alterations being made not just to the rogue class, but to all classes, can potentially open the door to some pretty wacky fight designs -- possibly involving, just as an example, lots of adds that different raid members will need to pick up or control depending on what abilities they bring to the table.

Who's to say you won't need to use Wound to prevent an add from healing itself for more than the damage your raid can deal to it? Who's to say we won't need to Paralytic-Shiv a mob to keep it from reaching your healer, who is specifically targeted by the design of the fight?

There are a number of raid fights within this expansion -- and many heroic dungeon boss fights as well, before many of us began to outgear the content and trivialize the mechanics -- in which our *existing* utility poisons would have been extremely useful if we felt we had any remote sense of freedom to use them without crippling (ha!) our DPS. (I actually remember, during early attempts on Ammunae in Halls of Origination, being specifically asked by my tank to use Wound Poison on one of my weapons to reduce his self-heal.) In Mists, we'll have that freedom. Heck, even if they *don't* demonstrably alter fight mechanics in the next expansion, just having that freedom will likely lead us to use these poisons in ways our one-dimensional brains can't even imagine right now, because the poor squishy things never had reason to do so.


I can't see it happening. Mainly because faction champs irritated so many people which goes against the casual thing.

Unless they make some stupid requirement for a rogue to be in the raid for a specific shiv ability. There will always be a range class with the ability to do what ever is required much faster without having to run over to the add or you will have people whining that there is an encounter that is impossible without a rogue which moves away from the non class specific mantra.

In the case that a melee dps is required to tank an add for some reason leeching will be the highest survivability anyway unless you need to kite it and hence every other range class will be better or a tank.

It is near impossible to imagine a situation where a melee class would be able to perform any role that a range can do simpler that does not involve leeching poison.

ie unless something really stupid happens and they implement another pvp encounter like faction champs again. There will be next to no reason to have anything other than DP/Leeching.

Shiv increased poison affects will be a pvp ability. Unless they add some interesting poison for pve that actually effects either dps, survivability or raid survivability with a duration long enough to mean that shiv should be included in the rotation. Leeching is the only one that I see ever being used in a raid outside stupid mechanic gimmick fights. I wish this was not the case but the simple fact of the matter is that ALL raid bosses are currently immune to all the other effects.
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90 Undead Rogue
5700
Can we just admit that this poison is poorly designed?

With Paralytic Poison you won't be able to slow the target, but instead root it every 10 sec for a 4 sec duration. On top of that you will randomly stun it for 4 seconds upon reaching max stacks?

Paralytic Poison (4 sec) + Cheapshot (4 sec) + Kidney Shot (3 sec) = 11 seconds of stun lock? Follow that with a 5 second garrote and you just locked a target out for 16 seconds.

Who the hell designed this crap. I guess the reason I'm so distraught about this is that you AREN'T LEARNING FROM YOUR MISTAKES. Didn't we have enough B/S RNG in the past?
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90 Undead Rogue
5700
To clarify on my post and inform those who don't know:

Paralytic Poisons stun does NOT DR kidney or cheap shot.
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90 Human Rogue
6570
So far i can say im really liking things.

But, about recuperate... Is there going to be a glyph to increase its healing, or is it going to remain 3%, because I don't see any talents involving it

And energetic recovery...uggg

Last, I feel like shiv is going to become annoying to press every 10 seconds for the snare (plus it costs 20 energy)



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85 Draenei Death Knight
3415
Paralytic Poison (4 sec) + Cheapshot (4 sec) + Kidney Shot (3 sec) = 11 seconds of stun lock? Follow that with a 5 second garrote and you just locked a target out for 16 seconds


Ok again people its not like we can just snap our fingers and make 5 stacks of para just like that...it only has a 20% chance to proc.

That mean that it may very well reach 5 stacks at a point where you are low on engery, or it may proc at a point where you need to escape or defend rather than ShD burst them.

And finally....you target IS going to have teammates.

For a mage they can simply blink/iceblock the stun away
Pallies can clense once they see themselves reaching 4 stacks
Locks have a on use trinket now in talents as well a several health regen skills and some pet sheild skills
Priests have dispersion and heals are...well heals and are hard to skill anyway.

So its not like they are just gonna let you do this.
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90 Undead Rogue
5700
02/18/2012 07:13 AMPosted by Duskbreaker
Paralytic Poison (4 sec) + Cheapshot (4 sec) + Kidney Shot (3 sec) = 11 seconds of stun lock? Follow that with a 5 second garrote and you just locked a target out for 16 seconds


Ok again people its not like we can just snap our fingers and make 5 stacks of para just like that...it only has a 20% chance to proc.

That mean that it may very well reach 5 stacks at a point where you are low on engery, or it may proc at a point where you need to escape or defend rather than ShD burst them.

And finally....you target IS going to have teammates.

For a mage they can simply blink/iceblock the stun away
Pallies can clense once they see themselves reaching 4 stacks
Locks have a on use trinket now in talents as well a several health regen skills and some pet sheild skills
Priests have dispersion and heals are...well heals and are hard to skill anyway.

So its not like they are just gonna let you do this.


You make some valid points, but the fact remains that this is a clunky RNG dependent talent that WILL break the game/class and cause all sorts of problems.

Anyone who played through BC can tell you that any random stun on it's own DR is going to be broken and abused.
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85 Draenei Death Knight
3415
02/18/2012 07:37 AMPosted by Chubbsmalone
You make some valid points, but the fact remains that this is a clunky RNG dependent talent that WILL break the game/class and cause all sorts of problems.


No...the fact doesnt remain.

Its not really clunky either I would say....its just a RNG poison that takes 5 stacks to do a stun.

All the while you lose your crip poison and have to rely on shive for a root to keep your foe close

I say its a fair trade




02/18/2012 07:37 AMPosted by Chubbsmalone
Anyone who played through BC can tell you that any random stun on it's own DR is going to be broken and abused.


<--Played since vanilla
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90 Undead Rogue
5700
I get that they're trying to make things "interesting", but adding MORE RNG isn't going to make things interesting, just more frustrating.

Also, it won't be hard to get to 5 stacks when you have SnD up and both poisons can now proc off of both weapons.
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90 Undead Rogue
5700
02/18/2012 02:57 AMPosted by Vandaro
Consider that poisons are dispellable, and you need five stack of Paralytic to get a stun off. It seems reasonably likely that the Paralytic stun will have a different dynamic in PvP than Mace Stun had. If your target is dropping stacks or you aren't able to make consistent enough contact to get stacks on faster than they drop off you may have some trouble getting the stun to land. It will also introduce the dynamic of trying to 'plan' your kidney shots around your Paralytic, so you aren't overlapping stuns.



Not to be rude but that "oh its dispellable" hand-waving away of the issue is exactly why Frost Mages were broken the entire damn expansion.


So true.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
4130
02/18/2012 07:13 AMPosted by Duskbreaker
Paralytic Poison (4 sec) + Cheapshot (4 sec) + Kidney Shot (3 sec) = 11 seconds of stun lock? Follow that with a 5 second garrote and you just locked a target out for 16 seconds


Ok again people its not like we can just snap our fingers and make 5 stacks of para just like that...it only has a 20% chance to proc.

That mean that it may very well reach 5 stacks at a point where you are low on engery, or it may proc at a point where you need to escape or defend rather than ShD burst them.

And finally....you target IS going to have teammates.

For a mage they can simply blink/iceblock the stun away
Pallies can clense once they see themselves reaching 4 stacks
Locks have a on use trinket now in talents as well a several health regen skills and some pet sheild skills
Priests have dispersion and heals are...well heals and are hard to skill anyway.

So its not like they are just gonna let you do this.


We aren't even going to be able to have crip on at the same time so its unlikely we will be able to have the uptime to even get leaching all the way up. Personally it seems like we will run deadly wound with deadly brew to get crip up. If they could make it so wound was considered lethal that would help greatly in giving us the ability to maybe think about something like paralytic as when we are on a target we would also be reducing healing to said target.

Also wound is most likely going to end up imba as heck when shivved on it will be like having a full stack of necrotic on or darn near. But we will see
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85 Draenei Death Knight
3415
02/18/2012 07:40 AMPosted by Chubbsmalone
Also, it won't be hard to get to 5 stacks when you have SnD up and both poisons can now proc off of both weapons.


You state this as if you have tried it on beta.

The chance of getting 5 para poison procs in a row are:

1/5 X 1/5 X 1/5 X 1/5 X 1/5 = 1/3125 or 00.032%

Now I know the point is not getting them in a row but as you can see it is likely that the procs are going to be spread out a fair bit even with SnD.

In addition...you actually have to be hitting them to get the proc and with out crip to snare them you likely wont be hitting them as often.

Again sounds like a fair trade to me.
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85 Draenei Death Knight
3415
02/18/2012 07:55 AMPosted by Alyx
Also wound is most likely going to end up imba as heck when shivved on it will be like having a full stack of necrotic on or darn near


Huh?

Necrotic absorbs heals (essentailly reducing them to 0 while the majority of it holds) wound only cuts them in half
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1 Troll Warrior
0
Do you really think Rogues need another form of control? I mean seriously they already have enough of it as is. Cheap shot, Gouge, Kidney shot, Blind, smoke bomb, and a 70% slow that can all be reset at disengaged at any time. Another stun just makes things way overboard. The devs talked about mages having to much control and then go and do this? How do they look over these things so easily?

People already complain in RBGs and Arena's that any decent rogue exhibits to much control over another player because he can completely shut down 1-2 individuals at all time due to essentially having 100% up time. No healer will waste an 8sec cd on a 70% slow to get away from a rogue when it is instantly reapplied. Devs also complained about melee uptime on targets. I guess they think rogues are immune to the discussion of control and uptime. Blizzards flavor of the lifetime.

I know when MOP comes out i'm just going to try and get 2 rogues on my RBG and 5v5 teams. 1 Rogue stacking the 50% healing debuff and crippling poison. The other rogue stacking mind numbing and paralytic. Or i'll just find a rogue that can macro weapons with the 4 poisons and go to work.
Edited by Dajela on 2/18/2012 8:58 AM PST
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