Shiv Changes

90 Troll Rogue
12450



Only if you can use them on the boss. Which i doubt will happen since that means you will be required to bring a rogue. And all of the standard poisons affects can be performed at range by another class or a tank.

Because boss fights never involve adds susceptible to CC.

At the rate things are going, I'd anticipate getting -more- encounters where these sorts of abilities would be extremely useful in the future. Which is potentially why they're being given to us now.

So, again. Until we see what the beta has in store for us, it's pointless calling any of this worthless.


How is it pointless pointing out how I see this panning out with the current information I have? Just because you are an eternal optimist always destined for disappointment does not mean I am too. I prefer to be pleasantly surprised rather than always disappointed. I share your hope in that these abilitys will actually be useful but history of the rogue class tends to indicate otherwise, we aer still using the same rotation as in vanilla and we are rarely if ever called apon to do anything other than stay alive and dps with the occasional kick or feint.

As it stands I see limited or no benefit from any of these poisons in a raid environment other than leeching and I hope that something is done to change that. Lack of information to support your optimism does not mean I should assume the best, actually if human history is anything to go by it is more logical to assume the worst. People don't do anything unless they actually see a problem and if no one points at the giant pink elephant in the room it is rare that anyone will see it fare less do anything about it.

Oh and name me 1 fight where a melee CC is better than anything that a range can bring? Even with these shiv abilities none of them offer any range CC or anything that a rogue can do better than any other class. In most cases they would be the least desirable version. if the reverse was true we will see a must bring rogue situation which is unlikely to happen.
Edited by Dreltath on 2/18/2012 5:03 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Rogue
9225
It's hilarious you're using such backwards thinking while communicating via PC on the internet.

02/18/2012 04:59 PMPosted by Dreltath
How is it pointless pointing out how I see this panning out with the current information I have?

Because the information we have about Mists of Pandaria PvE right now is... oh right... nothing.

02/18/2012 04:59 PMPosted by Dreltath
Just because you are an eternal optimist always destined for disappointment does not mean I am too. I prefer to be pleasantly surprised rather than always disappointed.

Such a cute little cynical narcissist.

02/18/2012 04:59 PMPosted by Dreltath
I share your hope in that these abilitys will actually be useful but history of the rogue class tends to indicate otherwise, we aer still using the same rotation as in vanilla and we are rarely if ever called apon to do anything other than stay alive and dps with the occasional kick or feint.

Oh man, in vanilla we like, pushed buttons. And today, we're like, still pushing buttons. And some of those buttons have the same names. SUCH HORROR. Now we're getting tools to give us -other- things to do than DPS and hit feint/kick occasionally, and all you can do is complain about it.

The why simply escapes me.

02/18/2012 04:59 PMPosted by Dreltath
As it stands I see limited or no benefit from any of these poisons in a raid environment other than leeching and I hope that something is done to change that. Lack of information to support your optimism does not mean I should assume the best, actually if human history is anything to go by it is more logical to assume the worst. People don't do anything unless they actually see a problem and if no one points at the giant pink elephant in the room it is rare that anyone will see it fare less do anything about it.

Sure, because the human race hasn't been in a constant, accelerating rate of technological advancement and change for the past ~5000 years. Even if you -are- still living in a cave, apparently you have WI-FI.

Lack of support for my optimism is synonymous with lack of support of your cynicism. Except that my optimism has some rationale: raid encounters have been becoming more complex over time.

02/18/2012 04:59 PMPosted by Dreltath
Oh and name me 1 fight where a melee CC is better than anything that a range can bring? Even with these shiv abilities none of them offer any range CC or anything that a rogue can do better than any other class. In most cases they would be the least desirable version. if the reverse was true we will see a must bring rogue situation which is unlikely to happen.

I'm going to go ahead and claim half the fights in T14, T15, T16, and T17. You can claim the other half.

Frankly I don't know what ranged classes do, they're ranged and they're creepy bastards. I'd love to have paralytic poison for Ragnaros and Gunship though, and mind-numbing for Maloriak.

It makes -sense- that we don't have many encounters in the past that would utilize these capabilities from a melee DPS perspective, because melee DPS didn't have these capabilities.

Now we will, and Blizzard can design encounters that will now allow us to use them. And if not, we just won't use them. My God, a button PvE rogues won't use. It's the end of the world as we know it!
Edited by Verelyse on 2/18/2012 5:27 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Rogue
0
Oh and name me 1 fight where a melee CC is better than anything that a range can bring? Even with these shiv abilities none of them offer any range CC or anything that a rogue can do better than any other class. In most cases they would be the least desirable version. if the reverse was true we will see a must bring rogue situation which is unlikely to happen.


Ragnaros, unless you believe your ranged are capable of stunning, slowing, and knocking back...everything. Especially on Heroic.
Sinestra. Gouge. It was important.

If you understood pve half as well as you think you do, you'd know how irreplaceable melee utility can be.
Edited by Leitka on 2/18/2012 6:19 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Rogue
9225
Also: http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/215551004_FfCPk-L-2.jpg
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
We've made our points, guys; I'm sure Drel will take another turn, but we should let this dance wear down, else it'll derail this thread and turn it unpleasantly trolly.
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90 Troll Rogue
12450

Now we will, and Blizzard can design encounters that will now allow us to use them. And if not, we just won't use them. My God, a button PvE rogues won't use. It's the end of the world as we know it!


This is exactly the problem. There is no choice for pve we want to avoid that situation. Your assumptions about what WILL be implemented are just as far fetched probably more so that anything I can indicate in the negative. As this actually involves doing something which in general people are inclined to do nothing. On the other hand the simple fact that in all likelihood it is expected that encounters, although they may have a couple of new things, will essentially stay the same. Unless they give another class the rogue unique shiv bonuses they are never going to allow them to affect a boss or even the adds or it will be a you must bring a rogue fight. If they do give it to another class it is more than likely that every other class will be better at it due to the nature of melee dps.

The only way to counter this is to give unique shiv abilities that do not have critical impacts on the fight. The result of that would be lets see .... Leeching is a better because it has a major impact on survivability due to being a self heal.

With current information, leeching is the raid choice without even a vague contest. If you want to dream about what possibilities this actually offers to the raid encounter you then have to first figure out how to make it more beneficial for the melee dps to do it over a range cast which will result in a you must bring a rogue situation. If we speculate and assume that it might be a "you must bring a melee fight" then maybe there is a possibility that each of the unique shiv abilities can be provided by another melee. In that case non of the abilities have a long enough duration to be worth while. Shiving every 10seconds will have a huge effect on rotation and a significant dps impact. Reminds me a bit of expose armor which i think we all agree was stupid and I am glad they are changing it.

There is no argument for this it has been echoed a bazillion times on these forums there is yet to be an encounter where either one of these situations doesn't apply. I hope that they consider this when designing the new encounters and find away around it. Mind you alot of people play rogues so they don't have to do that stuff, myself included.
Edited by Dreltath on 2/18/2012 7:45 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Rogue
9125
02/18/2012 06:52 PMPosted by Rfeann
We've made our points, guys; I'm sure Drel will take another turn, but we should let this dance wear down, else it'll derail this thread and turn it unpleasantly trolly.


Last blue post was 2 days ago

He has forsaken us, cast us aside, left us to rot!

HE DESERTED US!

WHY BLUE WHY DID YOU LEAVE!

We must make a sacrifice to appease him!

/not it
Edited by Timat on 2/18/2012 7:43 PM PST
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85 Undead Rogue
9605
02/18/2012 07:42 PMPosted by Timat
We've made our points, guys; I'm sure Drel will take another turn, but we should let this dance wear down, else it'll derail this thread and turn it unpleasantly trolly.


Last blue post was 2 days ago

He has forsaken us, cast us aside, left us to rot!

HE DESERTED US!

WHY BLUE WHY DID YOU LEAVE!

We must make a sacrifice to appease him!

/not it


never a mage around when you need one.

But even if he did leave I think we got a lot of good info out of him about where rogues will be in MoP and I'm really grateful that he did answer some questions.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
You say "leave" as though this were a thread that Daxxarri swooped down on, perched in, and then took off again. The entire forums are the blues' nest! We chatter plenty about how the blues never read this forum, but y'all have to know that's not true. This is as good a place as any on the Web to gauge the temperature of where players of our class stand on the issues that matter to us the most.

Yknow what amazes me most about this thread? We've probably used the word "Shiv" more in these 19 pages than we have in the last 19 months' worth of posts *combined*. The times, they are a changin'.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
9125
02/18/2012 08:55 PMPosted by Rfeann
You say "leave" as though this were a thread that Daxxarri swooped down on, perched in, and then took off again. The entire forums are the blues' nest!


So the devs are a bunch of man-bird people?
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
Hey, you said it, not me.

I confess I ain't got no idea WHAT Daxxarri is. But I bet he's immune to Shivs.
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85 Night Elf Rogue
9225
You say "leave" as though this were a thread that Daxxarri swooped down on, perched in, and then took off again. The entire forums are the blues' nest!


So the devs are a bunch of man-bird people?

Damn Arakkoa, going around conspiracorizing.


Now we will, and Blizzard can design encounters that will now allow us to use them. And if not, we just won't use them. My God, a button PvE rogues won't use. It's the end of the world as we know it!


This is exactly the problem. There is no choice for pve we want to avoid that situation. Your assumptions about what WILL be implemented are just as far fetched probably more so that anything I can indicate in the negative. As this actually involves doing something which in general people are inclined to do nothing. On the other hand the simple fact that in all likelihood it is expected that encounters, although they may have a couple of new things, will essentially stay the same. Unless they give another class the rogue unique shiv bonuses they are never going to allow them to affect a boss or even the adds or it will be a you must bring a rogue fight. If they do give it to another class it is more than likely that every other class will be better at it due to the nature of melee dps.

The only way to counter this is to give unique shiv abilities that do not have critical impacts on the fight. The result of that would be lets see .... Leeching is a better because it has a major impact on survivability due to being a self heal.

With current information, leeching is the raid choice without even a vague contest. If you want to dream about what possibilities this actually offers to the raid encounter you then have to first figure out how to make it more beneficial for the melee dps to do it over a range cast which will result in a you must bring a rogue situation. If we speculate and assume that it might be a "you must bring a melee fight" then maybe there is a possibility that each of the unique shiv abilities can be provided by another melee. In that case non of the abilities have a long enough duration to be worth while. Shiving every 10seconds will have a huge effect on rotation and a significant dps impact. Reminds me a bit of expose armor which i think we all agree was stupid and I am glad they are changing it.

There is no argument for this it has been echoed a bazillion times on these forums there is yet to be an encounter where either one of these situations doesn't apply. I hope that they consider this when designing the new encounters and find away around it. Mind you alot of people play rogues so they don't have to do that stuff, myself included.

Let's just let this rest for now, and pick it up again in a year. Then we can exchange sake cups and commiserate on the failures of international philanthropy and communicational decorum. :)

PS: I am bookmarking this, and will make a new thread on it on Feb. 19th, 2013. You better be here!
Edited by Verelyse on 2/18/2012 10:40 PM PST
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90 Troll Rogue
12450

Let's just let this rest for now, and pick it up again in a year. Then we can exchange sake cups and commiserate on the failures of international philanthropy and communicational decorum. :)

PS: I am bookmarking this, and will make a new thread on it on Feb. 19th, 2013. You better be here!


It's a lot easier to make changes now (ie in design phase) rather than try and retrofit something later (in production phase).

Blizz are not magically going to get this right, it is a new and rather complex situational balance requirement. I would like to see uses for it in pvp and pve however at this stage All I see it pvp is wound maybe mind-numb and deadly brew (not that I pvp so that is a guess) and pve equals leeching.

This basically removes the whole point of what they are trying to do with poisons which is make it a choice. We need something to actually make this a choice. ie if there is 2 rogues in the raid and you have to talk to the other one so that you have different poisons. Then there is a choice. Similar to what hunters do with there pets to cover the debuffs etc.

Dunno if I will be here, bouncy pandas can go 2 ways, depending which way that is will determine what i am doing. Cute and cuddly, happy joy joy land does not work in my head when I am wielding 2 giant daggers and stabbing stuff. pretty sure I don't want to play a "Kiddy Friendly" hack'n'slash.
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85 Night Elf Rogue
9225

Let's just let this rest for now, and pick it up again in a year. Then we can exchange sake cups and commiserate on the failures of international philanthropy and communicational decorum. :)

PS: I am bookmarking this, and will make a new thread on it on Feb. 19th, 2013. You better be here!


It's a lot easier to make changes now (ie in design phase) rather than try and retrofit something later (in production phase).

Blizz are not magically going to get this right, it is a new and rather complex situational balance requirement. I would like to see uses for it in pvp and pve however at this stage All I see it pvp is wound maybe mind-numb and deadly brew (not that I pvp so that is a guess) and pve equals leeching.

This basically removes the whole point of what they are trying to do with poisons which is make it a choice. We need something to actually make this a choice. ie if there is 2 rogues in the raid and you have to talk to the other one so that you have different poisons. Then there is a choice. Similar to what hunters do with there pets to cover the debuffs etc.

Dunno if I will be here, bouncy pandas can go 2 ways, depending which way that is will determine what i am doing. Cute and cuddly, happy joy joy land does not work in my head when I am wielding 2 giant daggers and stabbing stuff. pretty sure I don't want to play a "Kiddy Friendly" hack'n'slash.

I can agree with all of that. But I honestly do expect to find multiple uses for these effects in Mists PvE.

So... we'll see.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Will the snare and stun effect from Paralytic be able to be dispelled?
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
02/19/2012 07:18 AMPosted by Knocrogue
Will the snare and stun effect from Paralytic be able to be dispelled?


Since it's a poison, my money is on yes.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Yah. I do think it might. I really hope it isn't though! Then there wouldn't really be a point in dispelling the stacks. Once it reaches 4, call your partner to get ready. Second they get stunned, Bam. Dispelled.
Edited by Knocrogue on 2/19/2012 7:48 AM PST
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85 Human Warrior
1660
02/18/2012 12:05 AMPosted by Verelyse
We can all afford to relax a bit, this is a new concept being brainstormed in the pre-alpha pre-beta stage of the expansion, it's not like you'll wake up tomorrow and find rogues stunlocking everything death.
Rogues are already stunlocking everything to death.
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85 Human Warlock
3030


Sooooo… Does this mean that rogue damage might go up if we lose some control/mobility/survivability?
We want rogue PvE damage to remain top-tier. But yes, if rogues end up with less control or mobility or survivability, and they have to choose among those areas, then that allows us to safely improve their damage potential in PvP while keeping the class balanced overall.


Balanced like right now? Top represented class well above any melee or healers?
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100 Night Elf Rogue
9125
02/18/2012 09:15 PMPosted by Verelyse
PS: I am bookmarking this, and will make a new thread on it on Feb. 19th, 2013. You better be here!


Whats happening Feb 19th?




02/19/2012 08:06 AMPosted by Brettgarsed
We can all afford to relax a bit, this is a new concept being brainstormed in the pre-alpha pre-beta stage of the expansion, it's not like you'll wake up tomorrow and find rogues stunlocking everything death.


Rogues are already stunlocking everything to death.


Someone doesnt know how to use their trinket and/or about DRs
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