Shiv Changes

Community Manager
02/15/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Midvale
Yeah they should take the stun off of the actual poison and swap it with this effect as the stun is really random.


Well, yes. The random part is kind of important though.

An additional controllable stun that's on a different DR would be excessive. On the other hand, if it's on the same DR as CS and KS then that's... not good. By putting the root on Shiv and leaving the stun on the poison stacking we avoid that entirely, and rogues get a sweet stun that's on the random proc DR instead.

Despite the title of the thread (which I will callously change), we're interested in player feedback on the shiv change as a whole, though.

So what do you think?
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6335
Thanks for update!

Looks like great fun!!!!
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93 Worgen Death Knight
13060
02/15/2012 05:03 PMPosted by Verelyse
I'm also not exactly sure how a poison would root someone... but that's semantics.


Neurotoxins can paralyze.
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Community Manager
Welp looks like my thread is derailed. Thanks blue.


Sorry Midvale. Still pals?
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90 Pandaren Rogue
0
Yeah they should take the stun off of the actual poison and swap it with this effect as the stun is really random.


Well, yes. The random part is kind of important though.

An additional controllable stun that's on a different DR would be excessive. On the other hand, if it's on the same DR as CS and KS then that's... not good. By putting the root on Shiv and leaving the stun on the poison stacking we avoid that entirely, and rogues get a sweet stun that's on the random proc DR instead.

Despite the title of the thread (which I will callously change), we're interested in player feedback on the shiv change as a whole, though.

So what do you think?


Aw yeah, I guessed right. (@the bolded part)
One thing I am curious about is if there's any sort of cooldown (stated or internal) to the shiv applications. Obviously DR would affect the CC-esque ones, such as the root, but how about Leeching Poison? I could see that being very strong if not, but then again it's doubtful people would take leeching poison for much but soloing and small-scale/1v1 PvP.

Edit: nevermind, missed the 10 second CD.

@Ver, getting partially paralyzed is something of a root. Think of it in terms of Skyrim's paralysis effects on weapons (minus the falling over stiff thing. although that would be hilarious to see.)
Edited by Leitka on 2/15/2012 7:49 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Rogue
9225
02/15/2012 05:04 PMPosted by Daxxarri
So what do you think?

Most of them look to be more PvP applicable, which I'm not too familiar with. I guess it depends how many PvE situations we'll run into where our targets aren't immune to most of the Shiv effects.

Now that we'll actually be using a utility poison in PvE, it's interesting to think about.

And I'd be desperately curious if rogues could gain an offensive dispel from this system somehow.

02/15/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Hëartcrushër
I'm also not exactly sure how a poison would root someone... but that's semantics.


Neurotoxins can paralyze.


02/15/2012 05:11 PMPosted by Leitka
@Ver, getting partially paralyzed is something of a root. Think of it in terms of Skyrim's paralysis effects on weapons (minus the falling over stiff thing. although that would be hilarious to see.)

Haha... true.

Just imagining how many people will macro Monty Python and the Holy Grail quotes to their paralytic shivs.
Edited by Verelyse on 2/15/2012 5:14 PM PST
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90 Goblin Rogue
8455
02/15/2012 04:53 PMPosted by Verelyse
/jawdeskfloorbasementpurgatoryhellatlantis

Heyyyy... you did steal it!

I will now request payment in the form of...



1 MILLION dollars!
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93 Worgen Death Knight
13060
02/15/2012 05:04 PMPosted by Daxxarri
So what do you think?


From a pve perspective, it's interesting. The healing is still up in the air, considering there is so much still being worked on, how much 5% ends up being is hazy.

The root will be useful, depending on the fight.
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
The new Shiv will apply concentrated effects of the active utility poison. Those effects are not included in the poison tooltips currently available on the calculator, but here are the current versions:

Crippling Poison – Reduces the target’s speed by 70% for 12 seconds.


Seems fine. Without dispels, this gives Crippling 100% uptime if Shiv is used on CD.


Mind-Numbing Poison – Increases the casting time of an enemy's next spellcast within 8 seconds by 100%.


Duration should be 10 seconds, like Mind-Numbing is without Shiv if it remains the same.

I would prefer to see the effect to be 50% cast reduction, but persist for the full 10 seconds, rather than only applying to the next cast.

Just my 2 copper.

Wound Poison – Reduces the target’s healing received by 50% for 6 seconds.


This one seems fine. The healing reduction is huge, and I definitely agree that it would need a fairly short duration.

My only concern is that at 6 seconds, it might be too short to really be able to do anything valuable (Unless you're only trying to support your teammates or set up a stun on a dying opponent).

Leeching Poison – Instantly restores 5% of the Rogue’s health.


This one seems fine.

Paralytic Poison – Roots the target in place for 4 seconds.


This one seems fine.
Edited by Sheevah on 2/15/2012 5:41 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Rogue
8795
So what motivations do rogues have for taking leech and para if:

1) They prevent the use of crip (vital for PvP)

2) Override each other (Taking leeching basically makes para useless since you cant use them both) I dont think any other class has one talent that completely locks out the other.

It seems taking away our only reliable snare is a bit too much for a random stun or a minor heal boost.
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
So what motivations do rogues have for taking leech and para if:

1) They prevent the use of crip (vital for PvP)

2) Override each other (Taking leeching basically makes para useless since you cant use them both) I dont think any other class has one talent that completely locks out the other.

It seems taking away our only reliable snare is a bit too much for a random stun or a minor heal boost.


Crip is 50% without using Shiv, which a snare provided by many, many people. This means that you aren't required to use it, anymore. Plus, there's Deadly Brew.

Leeching will be good for self-sustaining PvE endeavors, and small PvP encounters where you don't have a healer.

Paralyzing has a lot of potential. It gives you a root (when shiv'd on), and can proc random stuns (different DR than KS and CS).

I'm seeing a lot of variety that will benefit various comps/playstyles in different ways. What is best will vary depending on what comp you run. Things like that.

I'm pretty sure that's part of their design goal, and if it's implemented smoothly, it will work out wonderfully.
Edited by Sheevah on 2/15/2012 5:42 PM PST
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90 Goblin Rogue
8455
02/15/2012 05:32 PMPosted by Timat
1) They prevent the use of crip (vital for PvP)

Deadly Brew.



02/15/2012 05:32 PMPosted by Timat
2) Override each other (Taking leeching basically makes para useless since you cant use them both) I dont think any other class has one talent that completely locks out the other.

I'm actually not sure if we HAVE to use 1 damaging, 1 utilty. Essentially, that would mean we'd HAVE to take Dirty Tricks, otherwise blind and gouge will break on our primary targets.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10990
Daxxarri, I am deeply offended. Why would you decide to post here specifically during a time when you clearly knew I was in the middle of my commute home from work?

Being PvP-illiterate, I'm curious to what extent any of this will even be relevant in Mists-era end-game PvE. It's been a pretty common occurrence that the more "utility" aspects of our class tend not to be available at all in raid situations -- Garrote's silence is the first thing that comes to mind, as just one example.

So... to what extent will Shiv's poison-extending effects apply in Mists boss fights? Would bosses be immune to all of these enhanced effects (and to the effects of utility poisons in general)? Would they suffer from the effects, but at a reduced %? Would some, like Leeching Poison, work, but others not? Would all of them only be valuable if used on adds as opposed to the boss?
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
02/15/2012 05:40 PMPosted by Backstabi
I'm actually not sure if we HAVE to use 1 damaging, 1 utilty. Essentially, that would mean we'd HAVE to take Dirty Tricks, otherwise blind and gouge will break on our primary targets.


For 1v1's, yes.

For anything else, Dirty Tricks is actually pretty weak.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
8795
02/15/2012 05:36 PMPosted by Sheevah
Crip is 50% without using Shiv, which a snare provided by many, many people. This means that you aren't required to use it, anymore.


I dunno though...

For a warrior or pally this might be true in this situation.

For a rogue though I usually focus on the caster/healer no one else is hitting who thinks he is safe in his little hiddy hole.

Thus no one else will be snaring him for a good while (in PvP time at least) since again he is doing his shtick from the background.

I think as a melee class without a spammable root break...having a snare is pretty important.



02/15/2012 05:36 PMPosted by Sheevah
Leeching will be good for self-sustaining PvE endeavors, and small PvP encounters where you don't have a healer.


TBH I dont care much for PvE (:P) but crip never was used in raids anyway so I doubt this affects them much.

Heals are always useful in PvP but like I said above...I dont know if they are worth losing a snare over.



02/15/2012 05:36 PMPosted by Sheevah
Paralyzing has a lot of potential. It gives you a root (when shiv'd on), and can proc random stuns (different DR than KS and CS).


The root is its only saving grace for me in PvP atm. Stuns are never a bad thing..but again having a constant snare vs a random stun...I would take the constant snare.

Again the basically 6sec CD root is the only thing keeping me interested.

What are your thoughts on the fact that basically we have 1 less talent than the other classes?

Why I say this is that:

If you take leech you give up para since you cant use them both...likewise take para you give up leech.
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