Shiv Changes

85 Night Elf Rogue
7155
I think with the current PvE design philosophy, it's going to be inevitable that some abilities, especially ones with utility traits, end up being skewed towards the upper end of the PvE spectrum. Adding more utility requirements and uses into leveling, LFD and LFR would stir up a hornet's nest :p
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90 Pandaren Rogue
0
02/19/2012 01:00 PMPosted by Real
I think with the current PvE design philosophy, it's going to be inevitable that some abilities, especially ones with utility traits, end up being skewed towards the upper end of the PvE spectrum. Adding more utility requirements and uses into leveling, LFD and LFR would stir up a hornet's nest :p


Exactly.

To put it into a PVP framing, it would be akin to this;
"I hate that I don't even have to interrupt healers in the 1500 bracket! That's stupid! Why do I even have interrupts if I don't have to use them"
"They're very important at higher ratings. If you want to be forced to use them more, move up the ladder!"
"But I'm not interested in playing at those ratings, I just want to make important decisions regarding kick at 1500!"

It's equally absurd the other way around. It's no more elitist for me to say "Hey, if you don't do heroics, don't tell others what pve players want or need" than it is for someone to say "Hey, if you don't do arena outside of low-rating 2s, don't tell others what pvp players want or need"
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90 Gnome Rogue
10645
Makes sense to me.
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100 Human Rogue
6325
02/15/2012 05:04 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Yeah they should take the stun off of the actual poison and swap it with this effect as the stun is really random.


Well, yes. The random part is kind of important though.

An additional controllable stun that's on a different DR would be excessive. On the other hand, if it's on the same DR as CS and KS then that's... not good. By putting the root on Shiv and leaving the stun on the poison stacking we avoid that entirely, and rogues get a sweet stun that's on the random proc DR instead.

Despite the title of the thread (which I will callously change), we're interested in player feedback on the shiv change as a whole, though.

So what do you think?


I thought Blizz wasn't going to add anymore stuns on a random DR since what happened with warriors and skillhearld+mace spec.
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85 Undead Rogue
Vex
8125
02/17/2012 05:33 PMPosted by Daxxarri
On a side-note, I noticed some other, non-poison/shiv related questions in this thread. Please stay on topic guys. I know that it's tempting to jump all over the map (I've done it), but it's best to stay focused.

Yeah sorry about wasting your time with that post earlier...

On a Shiv-related note, will there be anything stopping us from applying poisons on many OH weps and swapping them mid-battle (at least in arena) to get a specific shiv effect?
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90 Pandaren Rogue
0
02/19/2012 03:16 PMPosted by Haileaus
On a side-note, I noticed some other, non-poison/shiv related questions in this thread. Please stay on topic guys. I know that it's tempting to jump all over the map (I've done it), but it's best to stay focused.

Yeah sorry about wasting your time with that post earlier...

On a Shiv-related note, will there be anything stopping us from applying poisons on many OH weps and swapping them mid-battle (at least in arena) to get a specific shiv effect?


Yes, the poisons are a buff on the rogue rather than a temporary weapon enchant.
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85 Troll Rogue
1145
The new Shiv will apply concentrated effects of the active utility poison. Those effects are not included in the poison tooltips currently available on the calculator, but here are the current versions:

  • Crippling Poison – Reduces the target’s speed by 70% for 12 seconds.
  • Mind-Numbing Poison – Increases the casting time of an enemy's next spellcast within 8 seconds by 100%.
  • Wound Poison – Reduces the target’s healing received by 50% for 6 seconds.
  • Leeching Poison – Instantly restores 5% of the Rogue’s health.
  • Paralytic Poison – Roots the target in place for 4 seconds.


In before "Blues do read this forum"!


The only one that does not sit right with me is the Leeching Posion. Could you make it so that it does actually LEECH the hp from the target and isnt just a Heal?

Maybe -2.5% from enemy and then + 2.5% to player?

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85 Night Elf Rogue
7155
They'd need to make it take away only the amount healed, but the problem is introducing a damage component to a utility poison kind of wreaks havoc with the reason behind the system in the first place (being able to have a utility poison on without hurting DPS).
Edited by Real on 2/19/2012 4:18 PM PST
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3 Gnome Rogue
0
02/19/2012 03:53 PMPosted by Leitka
Yes, the poisons are a buff on the rogue rather than a temporary weapon enchant.


Where did they say this?
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90 Pandaren Rogue
0
02/19/2012 04:23 PMPosted by Nettiny
Yes, the poisons are a buff on the rogue rather than a temporary weapon enchant.


Where did they say this?


Q. For clarification, how exactly do active poisons work? One lethal, one utility, both with potential to proc from both weapons?
One Lethal, one Non-Lethal, and both poisons are effectively on both weapons. Whenever you land either a mainhand or off-hand strike, you have a chance to apply both your Lethal and Non-Lethal poison.


Q. Under the proposed system, it looks like it won’t be possible to take both Paralytic and Leeching Poison. Will we have to have to choose between Paralytic and Crippling?
You can take both Paralytic and Leeching, but you'll be able to actively make use of one at a time. That said, switching poisons isn't necessarily impossible in the heat of combat -- the cast time on swapping will be fairly short.


Those are the implied references to it in this thread alone (particularly the 'effectively on both weapons' part), but I do believe it was also more explicitly stated once in the past. Too lazy to go about digging that up now, though.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
I've got no memory of any explicit statement; it would be cool to get that clarification. It's the "effectively" in Daxxarri's thingie above that I agree supports our crazy-reckless-nutsoid assumption that poisons kind of work like auras, but as far as I've seen (and man, I seen things. lots of things.), we haven't been told exactly how these poisons are "applied."
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90 Pandaren Rogue
0
02/19/2012 04:39 PMPosted by Rfeann
I've got no memory of any explicit statement; it would be cool to get that clarification. It's the "effectively" in Daxxarri's thingie above that I agree supports our crazy-reckless-nutsoid assumption that poisons kind of work like auras, but as far as I've seen (and man, I seen things. lots of things.), we haven't been told exactly how these poisons are "applied."


I think it's more along the lines of previous mentions of consideration.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
It's a real key -- I hope Daxxarri comes back and can clarify. Like, if I use Paralytic, stack you to one, then Kidney you and switch to Wound, then Gouge you and switch back to Paralytic, would I be able to Shiv the root immediately because the previous Paralytic stack was still on you?

I'm not saying this is remotely a smart thing for us to do in a PvP scenario. Just using a stupid example to ask the question. :)
Edited by Rfeann on 2/19/2012 4:57 PM PST
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90 Troll Rogue
12450
It's a real key -- I hope Daxxarri comes back and can clarify. Like, if I use Paralytic, stack you to one, then Kidney you and switch to Wound, then Gouge you and switch back to Paralytic, would I be able to Shiv the root immediately because the previous Paralytic stack was still on you?

I'm not saying this is remotely a smart thing for us to do in a PvP scenario. Just using a stupid example to ask the question. :)


It won't matter, Shiv has a 10sec CD. And none of the affects last that long.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
In the scenario I just laid out:

0:00 -- attack applies Paralytic stack (15-second duration, expires at 0:15)

0:01 -- Kidney Shot applied

0:02 -- Paralytic => Wound poison switch triggered

0:05 -- poison switch complete

0:06 -- attack applies Wound debuff

0:07 -- Gouge applied

0:08 -- Wound => Paralytic poison switch triggered

0:11 -- poison switch complete (edit: I realize Gouge has expired by now; let's just assume the target threw up on himself, costing him a couple GCDs)

0:12 -- Shiv applied, triggering -- oh my! -- both the enhanced Wound poison effect *and* the enhanced Paralytic effect, if the Paralytic stack doesn't fade upon the poison switch.
Edited by Rfeann on 2/19/2012 6:37 PM PST
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90 Troll Rogue
12450
Interesting I would never have considerd that you would actually need to have the poison debuff on the target so that you can then shiv the enhanced, it is possible though that ehy might make it that way. I just assumed that the enhanced was a direct effect of having the poison buff on yourself and hence only being able to apply the root effect, in the case of paralytic. The wound poison debuff on the target would be not relavant the way I see it.

In short I would expect the enhanced effect to be a result of what poison buff you have on yourself not what poisons are on the target. I would also think that you would be able to shiv the enhanced version even if the target is not poisoned at all.
Edited by Dreltath on 2/19/2012 6:33 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Rogue
9125
0:11 -- Shiv applied, triggering -- oh my! -- both the enhanced Wound poison effect *and* the enhanced Paralytic effect, if the Paralytic stack doesn't fade upon the poison switch.


I dont think thats how it works.

I took it as it applies the concetrated form of your ACTIVE poison.

Thus if you have wound EQUIPPED (doesnt matter if the debuff of another poison is applied) then shiv will reduce healing by 50%.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
TBH, I think y'all are likely correct. I've just got a logic disconnect in my head between the traditional manner in which poison debuffs are applied (in that they're on the *target*, not us, which suggests they wouldn't just "vanish" if we swap poisons) and what that Shiv tooltip states.

Edit to add: This example is really part of a broader question about whether the debuff itself (if there is indeed a debuff on the target) from one non-lethal poison persists when we switch to another non-lethal poison.
Edited by Rfeann on 2/19/2012 6:54 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Rogue
9125
02/19/2012 06:46 PMPosted by Rfeann
Edit to add: This example is really part of a broader question about whether the debuff itself (if there is indeed a debuff on the target) from one non-lethal poison persists when we switch to another non-lethal poison.


I wouldnt see why not since most of the debuffs (save for crip) are no longer than 6 or 8sec any way.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13885
Oh, right -- I forgot about the PvP duration thing. But we can jury rig the above scenario to account for it:

0:00 -- attack applies Paralytic stack (8-second PvP duration shorter than 15-sec duration in Talent Calculator tooltip)

0:01 -- Kidney Shot applied

0:02 -- Paralytic => Wound poison switch triggered

0:05 -- poison switch complete

0:06 -- attack applies Wound debuff

0:07 -- Shiv applied, triggering... just Wound's enhanced effect? Or Paralytic's, too?
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