Shiv Changes

90 Night Elf Rogue
8265
02/19/2012 07:17 PMPosted by Rfeann
0:07 -- Shiv applied, triggering... just Wound's enhanced effect? Or Paralytic's, too?


Just wounds since that is your current ACTIVE poison. Para's deubff is on the target but YOU have only WOUND poison active.

EDIT: Active meaning the poisons you currently have on your weps.
Edited by Timat on 2/19/2012 7:25 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
0
Ah. OK, sorry, that makes sense now. Thanks for being patient with me as my slow mind worked its way through that. :)

It still seems like it'll be possible to have two debuffs active on a target at once, though, assuming a debuff doesn't dissipate with a poison swap. So you could MindNumbing-Shiv someone, then switch to Wound and increase their cast time while they're still under the cast-time debuff to ensure that their next self-heal (assuming it's a self-heal they cast) 1) takes longer and 2) is less effective when it completes. Right?

I wonder if the poison swap can be broken by an incoming attack or spell interrupt.
Edited by Rfeann on 2/19/2012 7:38 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
8265
02/19/2012 07:33 PMPosted by Rfeann
Ah. OK, sorry, that makes sense now. Thanks for being patient with me as my slow mind worked its way through that. :)


When I first played this game I though drinking water would regen my rage since if I didnt have mana of course drinking would have to give me rage or energy.

So yea...I have done MUCH worse :P

It still seems like it'll be possible to have two debuffs active on a target at once, though, assuming a debuff doesn't dissipate with a poison swap. So you could MindNumbing-Shiv someone, then switch to Wound and increase their cast time while they're still under the cast-time debuff to ensure that their next heal 1) takes longer and 2) is less effective when it completes. Right?


Indeed if the debuff lasts long enough (like crips) but for the other 6-8sec debuffs I dont think swaping out will be much of a boost since if the swap is 3sec long that means you are only really "using" 3-5sec of the debuff since for the other 3sec you are busy casting.

Now if only we knew if the reduced time on applying poisons glyph would work with this....

Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
0
A bit would also depend on whether the poison-swap command is on the GCD. If it's not, that would grab us another couple of seconds of overlapping debuffs if we timed it right.
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Rogue
2110
I don't think that the 3-5 seconds of 2x utility poisons would be worth the loss of 3s sitting in the open casting a new utility poison. It might be worth the swap for a new opponent, especially if you can do it in stealth ... but not during a fight.
Reply Quote
26 Goblin Mage
215
02/17/2012 05:33 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Consider that poisons are dispellable, and you need five stack of Paralytic to get a stun off. It seems reasonably likely that the Paralytic stun will have a different dynamic in PvP than Mace Stun had. If your target is dropping stacks or you aren't able to make consistent enough contact to get stacks on faster than they drop off you may have some trouble getting the stun to land. It will also introduce the dynamic of trying to 'plan' your kidney shots around your Paralytic, so you aren't overlapping stuns.


I don't find this to be a choice, even with dispels. If it's automatically applied, dispelling won't be an option. You can blow a GCD to remove a poison, or blow a GCD to remove someone's sheep. One has DR and takes time to re-apply... one does not. Please don't make the argument that it's a choice to remove the automatically applied poison. If your target is blowing multiple GCDs to remove Paralytic stacks, guess what? He's not doing anything to you, and MIGHT AS WELL BE STUNNED. It's the same difference, essentially.

The *only* class that has anything versus this style of poisoning is a shaman - because they have a cleansing totem that just removes it automatically. But again, it's not a player-controlled choice WHICH poison gets removed.
Edited by Korrah on 2/20/2012 4:22 PM PST
Reply Quote
85 Undead Warlock
9900
im quite baffled at the extend of of an attempt to make a situational skill/talent more viable when with some classes, you just completely remove the skill. hunter's, warlocks, etc.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Rogue
13185
Daxxarri
Community Manager

I have to chuckle because I recall the days of entire threads dedicated to the question of why "Blizz" hates rogues and *vanish* OMGSPIDERS /\/\(;..;)/\/\.


this is by far, the most hilarious post in the Rogue forums by a blue ever. Love it. :D

(I'm being serious too, not being negative). :D
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
2410
Wow. i hope shiv will have a CD or something, because having 50% MS will be beyond broken.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
0
It's a 10-second CD, Zee -- says it right on the talent calculator tooltip.
Reply Quote
90 Goblin Rogue
8455
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡ʌıɥs pןo

new shiv¯\_(ツ)
Edited by Backstabi on 2/20/2012 9:18 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Rogue
0
Q. How does poison proccing work now, and what does that mean for weapon speed.
Poison procs are largely unchanged, except, y’know, for all poisons being percentage-based in the future. We’re looking to get rid of the "fast 1.4 speed dagger" thing. The plan is for offhand daggers to just be daggers and interchangeable with main hand daggers. So we're anticipating Assassination and Subtlety rogues will use 1.8/1.8 daggers for the most part, while Combat will use a 2.6 main hand and a 1.8 offhand dagger. I know some of you noticed a Main Gauche change, and the intention isn’t a nerf. If it needs adjustment, it’s important to remember that numbers are still in flux.

On a separate note, while we don’t have an elegant system in place for it, we do know that a lot of Combat rogues want to at least have the appearance of dual wielding swords/axes/maces. There are a lot of hurdles, but maybe we’ll find a good way to deliver on that. No promises though! So, again, don’t get your hopes up too high.


I'm not sure if anyone else specifically brought this up (it's a long topic), but I can't help but feel that the explanation for this seems.....counter-intuitive.

Flat % proc chances favor faster weapons, while PPM mechanics generally favor slower weapons. Yet you changed all poisons back to flat % proc chances in order to remove the fastest weapons......it just doesn't appear to make much sense.

I was actually thinking a few days before the calculator updates that you guys might decide to make all poisons PPM (along with combat potency) and the more I thought about the consequences of doing so the more I realized that it would just make a lot of sense and solve a lot of issues without really creating any issues.

First off, PPM only favors slow weapon if you have abilities that hit with that weapon. Currently we already want the slowest mainhand weapon that our spec allows, and the only abilities we have that do offhand damage are Mutilate, Killing Spree and Shiv. Shiv is a 100% poison proc anyways and has a higer cost for slower offhands so clearly PPM poisons would not benefit from Shiv (the cost would make shiv still prefer faster offhands). Killing Spree's original MoP version didn't appear to hit with both weapons anymore anyways, so as long as it's not changed back to hitting with both it won't care about PPM affecting offhands. Which just leaves Mutilate which would push Assassination into using double 1.8, which is what your current intent is anyways.

So aside from changing Assassination's offhands (to what you're already changing them to) this would not result in any buffs, it would leave us just as well off as we are now. It would mainly just make it so that Combat and Subtlety could use anything in their offhand without any change in performance. And that in turn would solve the current complaints that people have over combat offhands. With this change then if a combat rogue wanted to dual-wield swords then they could dual-wield swords (if they can find any agi-swords, heh).

There are really only 2 issues I see with this:
1) pvp poisons on combat mainhands (and hemo-sword-sub). But I think that balancing around increased poison proc chances from SS, and Hemo could be accounted for.
2) the possibility of sub using a dagger mainhand for Backstab and an offhand sword/mace does seem rather strange. Not really sure how to fix that, as trying to tie sub to either dagger offhands would be too mut-ish; and tieing them to fast offhands would seem sort of back-handed since I'm arguing against that design choice.

Really, if you're planning on removing 1.4 "offhand" daggers anyways, I just don't see the reason to still tie us down to fast offhands when letting us pick our own offhands appears simple enough without creating any huge problems in the process.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Rogue
0
02/21/2012 03:23 AMPosted by Dhastardly
OMGSPIDERS /\/\(;..;)/\/\.


wait wait wait....

Daxx is scared of spiders people.
We can use this to our advantage!


....we finally have a blue posting here and you're fist instinct is to find a way to scare him away?
bad puppy!
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
0
02/20/2012 09:36 PMPosted by Pancakê
I was actually thinking a few days before the calculator updates that you guys might decide to make all poisons PPM (along with combat potency) and the more I thought about the consequences of doing so the more I realized that it would just make a lot of sense and solve a lot of issues without really creating any issues.


I confess, this is what my money was on as well. But to be fair, only one poison (Instant) is currently PPM, so from that standpoint it makes more sense to rebalance around the PPHization of that poison (especially since the new Deadly, which is PPH, effectively includes it) than to change the way that all other poisons work. And the oft-stated desire to wield slow off-hands is based on aesthetics, not on actual gameplay, so it makes more sense to consider that issue from a transmogrification standpoint than a game-balance standpoint, which would get way more hairy. Like spiders.

(Note: Edited because I KEEP SCREWING UP IN MY HEAD WHICH POISON IS PPM VERSUS PPH GAW)
Edited by Rfeann on 2/21/2012 12:09 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Orc Rogue
12715
Will we be getting a Glyph of Shiv? Something like:

Your Shiv to applies a random poison that you are otherwise capible of applying. (i.e., you can't apply Leeching Poison if you don't have the talent.)
Reply Quote
85 Undead Rogue
Vex
8125
I'm not sure that anyone knows what the deal with glyphs will be (surely not anyone outside of Bliz). This would be interesting, but its chances of implementation are highly dependent on what Bliz wants the general feeling and power of glyphs to be.
Reply Quote
86 Night Elf Rogue
4735
Glyph of Shiv:
Your Shiv applies poisonous spiders to the target.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Rogue
0
02/21/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Rfeann
I confess, this is what my money was on as well. But to be fair, only one poison (Instant) is currently PPM, so from that standpoint it makes more sense to rebalance around the PPHization of that poison (especially since the new Deadly, which is PPH, effectively includes it) than to change the way that all other poisons work. And the oft-stated desire to wield slow off-hands is based on aesthetics, not on actual gameplay, so it makes more sense to consider that issue from a transmogrification standpoint than a game-balance standpoint, which would get way more hairy. Like spiders.


Wound is currently PPM as well, even though it appears in MoP that it's loosing the damage portion and just applies the debuff.

And yeah, I guess that given that there are fewer PPM things to change to PPH for us than the other way around it seems like a more obvious choice. My main point was that from what I can figure changing them all to PPM would be virtually identical to their current MoP plans anyways, except that it would solve the combat offhand issue as well without them having to figure out some complex rule-set for combat rogues to prevent mut rogues running around with visible axes.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Rogue
6805
I foresee a lot of weapon swapping, or deadly brew being mandatory in pvp.

I was really hoping not too see cookie cutter pvp spec's again as cippling will always be mandatory in pvp, at least in my opinion.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]