Shiv Changes

90 Night Elf Rogue
8275
02/15/2012 05:43 PMPosted by Sheevah
I'm actually not sure if we HAVE to use 1 damaging,


We do.

IIRC blue said we can have 2 poisons active 1 leath 1 non lethal but they will be active on both weps not just one.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
02/15/2012 05:48 PMPosted by Timat
IIRC blue said we can have 2 poisons active 1 leath 1 non lethal but they will be active on both weps not just one.


Ya, that's correct. One of each, on both weapons.
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
02/15/2012 05:47 PMPosted by Timat
I think as a melee class without a spammable root break...having a snare is pretty important.


Burst of Speed and deadly throw would like a word with you.



02/15/2012 05:47 PMPosted by Timat
What are your thoughts on the fact that basically we have 1 less talent than the other classes?


I think that it works out to be fine, because they both would be beneficial in two drastically different facets of the game.

In the situations you would want leeching, you would have no use for paralytic, and in the situations you would want paralytic, leeching would be useless.
Edited by Sheevah on 2/15/2012 5:54 PM PST
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85 Undead Rogue
9450
02/15/2012 05:04 PMPosted by Daxxarri
So what do you think?


I think a lot of the current talents and changes are directed at pvp. While the pvp community bitterly battles it out in another topic, I for one am left feeling a bit flat, as I am a pve rogue.

As Heartcrusher stated above, Leeching appears to have the only real value in a raid environment (based on current and previous raiding experiences). Anything that shiv "could" do for a pve rogue on a fight where one of the other uses for shiv becomes useable, immediately becomes a "gimmick" fight and therefore requires a rogue to "game the fight". This is a direction that Blizzard has strongly gotten away from over the past 6 years and not one I can envision them going back to.

All in all, the base abilities seem nice. Though hardly anything changes for most specs other than a few tweaks here and there - and when it comes to talent choices for PvE - I see that the choices I make for "flavor" (based on my current understanding of raid boss mechanics) means that for 3 out of the 6 tiers, it really doesn't matter what I chose. They're all irrelevant. Picking one over the other is simply a means to getting further into the tree - which is also something Blizzard has said they want to get rid of with this new talent system.

Specifically, Tiers 1, 2, and 5 will have little to no impact on raiding (if raiding stays the way it is currently). Tier 3 offers some survivability / self healing that isn't really needed as rogues are generally the lowest damage takers (on most fights). Tier 4 offers either mobility (which is really nice to see for all specs now) or Prep. Which effectively resets your CoS and Vanish CDs which are nice for Sub and Assass, but fairly worthless for combat - unless you really NEED another CoS right NOW!

Tier 6... well... I'll just leave that one alone for now.
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90 Human Rogue
13000
Proof positive that the devs the rogues. This is fantastic. I'm reading all the changes and I'm so excited.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
Aeriwen, are you gonna update the changes thread you started up a couple months ago? :)

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3595374851

<doe eyes>
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8275
02/15/2012 05:51 PMPosted by Sheevah
Burst of Speed and deadly throw would like a word with you.


BoS costs more than 1/2 our energy and DT costs CP

I dont consider that spammable. Both are good...but not spammable.
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90 Gnome Rogue
10315
02/15/2012 05:47 PMPosted by Timat
TBH I dont care much for PvE (:P) but crip never was used in raids anyway so I doubt this affects them much.


Illidan, Lich King, Nefarian, Maloriak, Four Winds, Heroic Madness... I'm prolly missing a few others but you get the point.

02/15/2012 05:47 PMPosted by Timat
If you take leech you give up para since you cant use them both...likewise take para you give up leech.


And again, depending on YOUR comp and YOUR playstyle and the role YOU fill in a particular BG/Arena/Raid you can - and will at some point - chose between the talents in their respective tiers.

Be it Cheat Death, Leeching, Elusiveness or Brew, Paralytic, DD.

Or you know, you could always take both and keep an extra dagger in your bag to swap in to fill both rolls?
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I've played a rogue for a long time, I like the utility of shiv, and the idea behind the changes, but as previously mentioned, if it shares a DR with CS/KS, I wouldn't really care for it.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
02/15/2012 05:04 PMPosted by Daxxarri
So what do you think?


The concept is pretty cool. But, I have some background questions.

Why was Crippling chosen to be reduced to 50% and have Shiv 70%?
Is Crippling going to last 12 seconds in PVP now, instead of 8 seconds?
Is the 4 second Root really going to make up for not having a snare? (As from what I see, Rogues can't use both Cripple and Paralytic)
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
BoS costs more than 1/2 our energy and DT costs CP

I dont consider that spammable. Both are good...but not spammable.


How are they not spammable?

Burst is a 4 second freedom.

Deadly throw only costs 1 combo point at a minimum, which will be proccing from HaT/Shuriken/ etc.

Deadly brew is also an option to ensure you have crip up if you wanted that route.


Edit: I think the important thing to note is that the talents are meant to make you think about what choices you want to make.

To me, it seems like they do that. There isn't going to be a clear cut winner for every scenario, and that, my friend, is working as intended.
Edited by Sheevah on 2/15/2012 6:05 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8275
02/15/2012 06:04 PMPosted by Sheevah
Burst is a 4 second freedom.


But again costs more than 1/2 our energy. So you cant spam it like say pally clense.



02/15/2012 06:04 PMPosted by Sheevah
Deadly throw only costs 1 combo point at a minimum, which will be proccing from HaT/Shuriken/ etc.


Shuriken yes if you chose it

HaT iirc has a 2 sec CD and does not guaruntee a proc every 2sec only when an ally crits.



02/15/2012 06:04 PMPosted by Sheevah
Deadly brew is also an option to ensure you have crip up if you wanted that route.


Which locks you out of para....but tbh with good reason. Having both a reliable snare and a on demand 4sec root is far too much for a rogue heh.



02/15/2012 06:04 PMPosted by Sheevah
To me, it seems like they do that. There isn't going to be a clear cut winner for every scenario, and that, my friend, is working as intended.


Never said it shoudlnt....my concern though is that crip may be the clear cut winner between leech and para.

Not having tested it I cant say for sure but for the last 7 years (shorter for some but I was in during vanillla) we as a melee class have used crip damn near 100% of the time in PvP simply because we needed to keep targets close.

Letting go of that ability to keep targets close means I need to make sure I am getting something just as good...actually considering it is a talent.....better than I gave.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
Quick question for you PvP weirdos: Is there anything interesting -- for better or for worse -- about the fact that Shiv would perform these crazy utility-poison-enhancing things *in addition to* dispelling an enrage effect? Given that Shiv will have a cooldown now, does that not make deciding when to dispel an enrage and when to let it go an awful lot tougher?
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90 Human Rogue
10935
I'm wondering if the crippling poison proc from deadly brew will also be concentrated from shiv.
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90 Human Rogue
10935
02/15/2012 06:12 PMPosted by Rfeann
Quick question for you PvP weirdos: Is there anything interesting -- for better or for worse -- about the fact that Shiv would perform these crazy utility-poison-enhancing things *in addition to* dispelling an enrage effect? Given that Shiv will have a cooldown now, does that not make deciding when to dispel an enrage and when to let it go an awful lot tougher?
I'm hoping for a glyph that will remove the cool down.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
02/15/2012 06:14 PMPosted by Stabetha
I'm wondering if the crippling poison proc from deadly brew will also be concentrated from shiv.


The tooltip specifically says it's applying "a concentrated form of your active Non-Lethal poison," so I'm thinking not.
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90 Gnome Rogue
10315
02/15/2012 06:14 PMPosted by Stabetha
I'm wondering if the crippling poison proc from deadly brew will also be concentrated from shiv.


Considering the tool-tip specifically states from your ACTIVE non-lethal poison, I highly doubt it.

02/15/2012 06:12 PMPosted by Timat
Letting go of that ability to keep targets close means I need to make sure I am getting something just as good...actually considering it is a talent.....better than I gave.


And again I'll say - Keep and extra dagger (or two... or three) in your bags with differing poisons applied for weapon swaps mid combat for additional utility. Just like has *always* been done. You don't have to spec INTO crippling in order to use it.
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
02/15/2012 06:12 PMPosted by Timat
Never said it shoudlnt....my concern though is that crip may be the clear cut winner between leech and para.


I can assure you that it won't be a clear cut winner.

It's mandatory now, because it's the best snare in the game, and our damage is terrible if we can't sit on a target.

You're just accustomed to it being that way, so it's hard for you to envision it being different. You need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and ponder what it would be like if you had decent uptime (rather than extraordinary), and did strong (rather than weak) damage on a target.

To me, that's a fair trade.



02/15/2012 06:12 PMPosted by Rfeann
Quick question for you PvP weirdos: Is there anything interesting -- for better or for worse -- about the fact that Shiv would perform these crazy utility-poison-enhancing things *in addition to* dispelling an enrage effect? Given that Shiv will have a cooldown now, does that not make deciding when to dispel an enrage and when to let it go an awful lot tougher?


It doesn't really make it tougher, because there's not a lot of the enrages that are particularly useful to dispel, honestly. We take them off now, because it's so easy and convenient, but if they were to stay on, it's not the end of the world. The huge enrages you would really need to dispel (Druid berserk/Hunter's bestial wrath) aren't dispellable, anyway.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
02/15/2012 06:21 PMPosted by Sheevah
You're just accustomed to it being that way, so it's hard for you to envision it being different. You need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and ponder what it would be like if you had decent uptime (rather than extraordinary), and did strong (rather than weak) damage on a target.


That sounds like it has the potential to completely redefine the typical role of a rogue in an organized PvP scenario.
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90 Human Rogue
13000
Aeriwen, are you gonna update the changes thread you started up a couple months ago? :)

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3595374851

<doe eyes>


I'm frothing at the mouth. I got plans. BIG plans.

/keelsoverinexcitement

I'm loving the random stun/shiv root effect. It will be awesome to not have to blow kidney just to stop someone from running. And on top of that proc a random stun? Yes, please. That FC ain't going nowhere. Even adds in PvP, that would normally be immune to stun. Shiv.

/dance

I can't possible state how great all of the rogue tweaks look. My future baby monk is probably going to have a hard time getting leveled. :P
Edited by Aeriwen on 2/15/2012 6:25 PM PST
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