Shiv Changes

Yup.

Q. For clarification, how exactly do active poisons work? One lethal, one utility, both with potential to proc from both weapons?
One Lethal, one Non-Lethal, and both poisons are effectively on both weapons. Whenever you land either a mainhand or off-hand strike, you have a chance to apply both your Lethal and Non-Lethal poison.


EDIT: I think I see, in the Shiv tool-tip. It says 25% weapon damage (far less than 200!), dis-enrage, and a concentrated form of your active non-lethal poison.

It's still a weapon strike, you'd think it'd still have a chance to apply a poison, even if it isn't guaranteed.
Edited by Madcapmcgee on 2/16/2012 2:09 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Rogue
7155
02/16/2012 02:05 PMPosted by Madcapmcgee
Odd, I thought that possibly excepting Toss, both hands were applying both weapons ... or at leas that that was a consideration.


They do. I wonder if Shiv will first run through the regular attack poison application routine, then apply a concentrated version of the non-lethal, or if it skips regular poison application completely. Should be the former considering it's an off-hand weapon attack at heart, with an effect added on.
Edited by Real on 2/16/2012 2:09 PM PST
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85 Undead Rogue
Vex
8125
This post indicates that Shiv won't be applying our normal poison - just the special effect. Of course there should still be the normal chance to proc...

02/15/2012 05:04 PMPosted by Daxxarri
An additional controllable stun that's on a different DR would be excessive. On the other hand, if it's on the same DR as CS and KS then that's... not good. By putting the root on Shiv and leaving the stun on the poison stacking we avoid that entirely, and rogues get a sweet stun that's on the random proc DR instead.
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Haileaus,

The context of that comment was that "it makes more sense to turn a root into a stun than a stun into a root." Dax was showing how that doesn't make for a good mechanic. There's nothing there to say that Shiv can't apply a poison.

Its auto-apply wording is no longer in the tool tip, but I don't see anything that says Shiv (or Expose Armor) can't apply a poison. It seems likely they'll be RNG.

Real raises a good question and probable answer about if/where the priority will be. Very insightful.
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100 Human Rogue
14660
Shiv would still be an offhand attack, so presumably, it would still have a chance to apply the normal poison, along with its additional effect.

I have little to be concerned about so far. Rogues appear even more flexible than before about how we engage oppoents, which is one of the main reasons to play a rogue. At least for me it is. We have some real interesting choices for poisons and talents. (We are basically getting in-combat talent choices with the expanded poison functionality.) Being able to switch mid-combat between something really melee counter like paralytic, to something like wound for the healing debuff, and then to crippling against a ranged or an FC, this really good flexibility.

There are going to fall back poisons for things that you do regularly, but I don't think every single poison (and talent for that matter) needs to have a use in every single aspect of the game. I think its ok to just use instant while questing or when you don't want a dot, deadly while raiding, leeching when taking lots of damage on a target, or paralytic for an extra stun on adds or a healer. I don't think every ability needs to be highly useful and viable in arena and raids just as much as running dailies or world pvp. I think that so long as there are useful options and flexiblity, then that is OK.

We are more locked into what we can or can not do as rogues right now, than when these changes mean. So, I think that most everything I've seen looks fantastic, and very rogue.
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Community Manager
02/16/2012 01:36 PMPosted by Detteew
Any chance you guys will consider making Wound a lethal poison?


There's a chance, we'll have a look.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
4130
02/16/2012 02:45 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Any chance you guys will consider making Wound a lethal poison?


There's a chance, we'll have a look.


It would be greatly appreciated :D
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67 Undead Mage
290



There's a chance, we'll have a look.


It would be greatly appreciated :D


It certainly would - thank you for your response
Edited by Detteew on 2/16/2012 2:48 PM PST
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90 Gnome Rogue
10645
02/16/2012 02:47 PMPosted by Alyx


There's a chance, we'll have a look.


It would be greatly appreciated :D

Yes, yes it would. As it stands our options for Lethal vs Non-Lethal seems a little lopsided. What is it, 2 lethal options vs 5 non-lethal? And one of the Lethal options, Deadly, has the functionality of the other, Instant, baked into it.
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85 Undead Rogue
2860

Q. Under the proposed system, it looks like it won’t be possible to take both Paralytic and Leeching Poison. Will we have to have to choose between Paralytic and Crippling?
You can take both Paralytic and Leeching, but you'll be able to actively make use of one at a time. That said, switching poisons isn't necessarily impossible in the heat of combat -- the cast time on swapping will be fairly short.

That said, we're taking a look at the decision involved in the current placement of the different Poison-related talents, and that's something we may reevaluate. Still early days yet – and that applies to everything in this list.


I wouldn't mind the new poisons being put on the same tier seeing as how using one precludes the use of the other. What worries me is 2 new non lethal poisons are our talents to compete with crippling poison, something I find to be too much a loss in pvp. People say that other classes bring snares as good as crip but I don't trust other people to keep a constant snare on my target and secondly they aren't thinking much about solo and small group pvp, or even world pvp which may become prevalent in WoW.

So my point is, I don't think these new poisons are that great compared to a constant snare. What troubles me further is that 2 of our talents on different tiers makes each other unusable. While we can change poisons in the heat of combat I don't really see a situation where if I'm in the middle of fighting I would think to put paralytic poison on if only to shiv since it takes 5 apps to stun.

Speaking of shiv, I love what you've done with it. My only qualm is crippling poisons secondary effect. It is woefully bland. Why not make it a disarm?
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11845
Yknow, I may be misinterpreting the Leeching Poison tooltip (and I apologize if someone already called this out earlier), but... I don't see a duration here, or a limit on the number of strikes that'll regenerate your health. What would be the point of keeping this poison on our weapon after the first application, if it has no duration? To what extent will any of these utility poisons' debuffs linger on the target if we switch to a different utility poison?

I'm also curious if anyone has or can quickly do the math: How much damage does a Combat rogue deal in a single Killing Spree?

Edit to add:
Yes, yes it would. As it stands our options for Lethal vs Non-Lethal seems a little lopsided. What is it, 2 lethal options vs 5 non-lethal? And one of the Lethal options, Deadly, has the functionality of the other, Instant, baked into it.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but it's kind of more like 2 vs 3, since two of the non-lethal poisons are optional. There's a pretty big difference between Deadly and Instant, though, even with the quasi-bakery going on; Instant shakes out to be the go-to poison in high-mobility fights or when stabbing anything that'll die within 12 seconds, while Deadly is for a longer-term murder commitment.
Edited by Rfeann on 2/16/2012 2:56 PM PST
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Yknow, I may be misinterpreting the Leeching Poison tooltip (and I apologize if someone already called this out earlier), but... I don't see a duration here, or a limit on the number of strikes that'll regenerate your health. What would be the point of keeping this poison on our weapon after the first application, if it has no duration? To what extent will any of these utility poisons' debuffs linger on the target if we switch to a different utility poison?

I'm also curious if anyone has or can quickly do the math: How much damage does a Combat rogue deal in a single Killing Spree?

Edit to add:
[quote]Yes, yes it would. As it stands our options for Lethal vs Non-Lethal seems a little lopsided. What is it, 2 lethal options vs 5 non-lethal? And one of the Lethal options, Deadly, has the functionality of the other, Instant, baked into it.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but it's kind of more like 2 vs 3, since two of the non-lethal poisons are optional. There's a pretty big difference between Deadly and Instant, though, even with the quasi-bakery going on; Instant shakes out to be the go-to poison in high-mobility fights or when stabbing anything that'll die within 12 seconds, while Deadly is for a longer-term murder commitment.[/quote

It's probably just missing. Wound and Paralytic are both listed at 15. Leeching still has to be applied before it can get the enhanced Shiv effect. I can't imagine Leeching Poison being infinite (and letting Venomous Wounds continue to tick, as nice as that'd be).

I still don't like the probability that Leeching/Paralytic will displace other utility poisons (talent at the cost of other talents, including each other, and normal utility ... a high cost). I also don't like that Leeching is currently worded to only increase health from weapon strikes ... what about other damage? A lot of Mut's damage is poison.
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7 Tauren Shaman
0
here's a solution to combat/etc guys wanting both weapons to look the same - allow transmog between all weapon types, just keep 1h/2h/ranged/shields as the only categories you can't cross
Edited by Pathogen on 2/16/2012 3:00 PM PST
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02/16/2012 02:52 PMPosted by Rfeann
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but it's kind of more like 2 vs 3, since two of the non-lethal poisons are optional. There's a pretty big difference between Deadly and Instant, though, even with the quasi-bakery going on; Instant shakes out to be the go-to poison in high-mobility fights or when stabbing anything that'll die within 12 seconds, while Deadly is for a longer-term murder commitment.


For Sub/Combat, the damage loss in IP might be worth taking in order to skip Dirty Tricks. You'll have to give up bleeds, but thats more of a loss for Garrote's silence effect than Rupture.
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90 Pandaren Rogue
19010
It might be little off topic, but I noticed that you said nothing shall break the 8 second duration in pvp. Will this end up also applying to other classes debuffs like Druids' Faerie Fire which currently lasts roughly 35 seconds?
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85 Night Elf Rogue
7155
WTB ability to hide Rogue forums from other classes :)
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11845
Um, guys, don't go too crazy, but:

Can you answer this for us: What is being done with spell crit for DPS specs?

I notice that Boomkins and SPriests no longer get the 100% crit damage boost. Ele Shaman get only 50% boost from Elemental Fury.

Is this being done to "tone down" spell damage, or are crits going to be 2x baseline for everybody?

Basically, I want to know if this means that Enhancement Shaman and Rogues are finally getting 2x spell crits.


Our baseline assertion is that all spells and abilities will crit for double damage. There are a few exceptions to this, such as Elemental shaman getting a 2.5x crit multiplier, but the default is 2x for everyone now.

Yes, this means that Enhancement shaman spells and rogue Poisons will crit for double damage.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4063167954?page=42#834

Does this apply to Envenom, too?
Edited by Rfeann on 2/16/2012 3:23 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Rogue
8995
wait, wasnt blizzard talking about how some classes have TOO MUCH control

and now they give rogues a root?

ok....


By taking away our snare

Chill out
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