What does everyone think of T-13 HM's?

90 Dwarf Warrior
9600
I was curious since i don't really talk to many people outside of guild what people thought so far about this tier of heroics.. What are the barriers your running into class/spec wise? Any tips you want to share etc?? Are the dps requirements or healing requirements over the top? Just curious what people think of this tier..

I will be posting a reply with my thoughts below
Edited by Briswindus on 2/14/2012 8:46 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
10240
Well of eternity...

mages: counterspell
Paladins : Rebuke
Warriors: Pummel *throwdown does not work... to my knowledge*
Druids: Skull bash, Starsurge
DK's: Mind Freeze, Strangulate
Shamen: Windshear
Hunters: Silencing shot *talented only*

if you do not know what these are and you run these toons *hunters aside... silencing shot is a choice* do your tank and healer a favor. /uninstall.

Aside from that the only thing that kinda chapped my rear was the gear was at par with the vast majority of fl gear give or take, and with no set bonus... thank god.

Granted we see this every expansion but this was a patch... big one but a patch none the less... the dungeon gear shouldnt have been tooled to be at par with current raid gear.
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90 Human Paladin
13300
@ dertrac He meant the DS hard mode encounters..

i thought this teir of heroics was pretty boring for the most part,.. just very uninteresting encounters and non-creative ways to set themselves appart from the normals mechanic wise,... morchok just splits himself in half.. very lazy stuff,.. add an extra ooze to yorsaj,
i like the change to blackhorn,.. that was done right

i thought the funess level of FL was more compeling,.. and i know im a minority here.

for the good parts,.. i think the dps/heal requirments are pretty right on,.. and i like the progressive difficulty more then firelands had,.. firelands 6/7 was a breeze then rags was too much a brick wall.. while the DS encounters are pretty smooth on how they progress through difficulty,.. and the 5% diminishing or incresing nerf is right on,.. feels right,..

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90 Undead Priest
16610
We wish that Heroic Yor'sahj didn't rely on healers. We don't like healers here on horde side. And they don't like themselves.

We all love me though.
Edited by Holypenguin on 2/18/2012 10:54 AM PST
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90 Orc Warlock
0
Morchok seems tuned well for an entry level heroic. I think the splitting in half makes it a lot more interesting personally. If you think Blizzard was lazy with designing heroic modes Yor'sahj and Ultraxion would be much better examples to make your case. But adding that extra ooze on Yor'sahj while simple on the front end can completely change the dynamics of the fight.

As far as barriers for class/spec, the only thing that seemed annoying so far was working out a rotation for soaking Hour of Twilight on Heroic Ultraxion. I'm not sure our raid makeup will support 15 soakers.
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90 Undead Priest
16610
The difficulty disparity between 10 and 25 man Ultraxion is laughable, too. It's as bad, if not worse than the difficulty difference between 10 and 25 heroic Majordomo. The 10 man versions for both are just jokes.
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90 Human Paladin
13300
02/18/2012 02:11 PMPosted by Kezmethron
I think the splitting in half makes it a lot more interesting personally


eww didnt like it. the extra ooze that reached yorsage usually just meant extra raid dmg to heal. very uninteresting and boring to me..
and i know im a minority,..i have a very unique perspective from most peps. my taste are very diffrent from most people, this is an opinion coming from someone that thought firelands was well made and fun minus the heroic pacing was bad , i think DS got the heroic pacing at least right.
teir 13 was boring rehashed content and reused charecter models mostly,.. even the setting is reused content,.. just very lazy and boring,.. gunship is a fight that i liked, but the boss is a stupid tauren i never heared of,.. and i swear how many times can blizz use the same voice acting for its bosses where the boss says "run away little girl, run away"?

As far as barriers for class/spec, the only thing that seemed annoying so far was working out a rotation for soaking Hour of Twilight on Heroic Ultraxion. I'm not sure our raid makeup will support 15 soakers.


well im sure your already aware of most the dps classes that have 3min or less abilities to survive the hour of twilight so ill go over some of the less used abilities and classes for this.

cat type druids using survival instincts + barkskin

holy pallies can bubble one

holy priest with guardian angel

all pallies can give hand of sac to classes with weaker type of cool downs

disc priest can pain suppress restro druid with barkskin, enh shaymen with shamastic rage, or holy pally with divine protection,.. disc priest can also throw in power word barrier for these classes on an earlier hour of twilight and have it ready again on the hard part.

warrior equip shield and shield wall macro+rallying cry for good measure.. and quickly go back to dps weaps after the hour of twilight

worse two, but work
all shaymen can die and pop back up for the last hour of twilight
warlocks can soulstone and use up some brezes for the last hour of twilight
* these guys that are dying and coming back also get a 2nd heroism, and have a 3rd pot for that heroism as well
Edited by Alexor on 2/24/2012 12:39 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
11335
I felt that Dragon Soul had a very epic feel when you read about the encounters, but actually playing them was something of a letdown. Launching onto the back of Deathwing and prying up armored plates to buy Thrall a clear shot sounds really awesome... until you land on DW and find out its just killing adds for 5 minutes. Deathwing just never came across as seriously powerful.

I think a lot of it was players having a smaller role in the outcome of the battle. Blizz wanted to make us feel like we were powerless to stop Deathwing without the aspects help, but all they really seemed to do was make us feel like an auxiliary force, cleaning up the stuff the aspects couldn't be bothered with. If the Litch King fight had been set up in this model, we would be the ones in the ice block, watching Tirion do all the work.

Blizz really had some great ideas for Dragon Soul, but it feels like something got lost from concept to implementation, which was seriously detrimental to the overall feel of the raid.
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90 Orc Warlock
0
and i swear how many times can blizz use the same voice acting for its bosses where the boss says "run away little girl, run away"?


That is DBM and has nothing to do with Blizzard being lazy. I'm pretty sure that was only ever part of the Red Riding Hood fight in Karazhan. I don't mean to be rude but that's pretty hilarious that you gave that as an example of Blizzard rehashing content.

Also as far as soakers our raid has like 7 stinking shaman. It's a curse.
Edited by Kezmethron on 2/27/2012 12:51 AM PST
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90 Orc Warlock
0
I think the lack of "epicness" has to do with the drive to make raiding accessible to all. Now I definitely think Blizzard is doing the right thing for the game to make it so everyone sees the content. It's a stupid business model to spend the most time designing something only 5% of your player base sees. However there is no denying that it feels way less epic to kill Morchok on 25 man Heroic (the "true" difficulty for old school raiding) after you've already killed him a ton of times on LFR and Normal.

There was nothing really more epic in fight design during TBC raids with a few notable exceptions, but back then you either had to do it the hard way or not at all. That made it feel more epic automatically, even if it was poorly designed.

I'm definitely not saying Blizzard should go back to the old ways, I definitely think the new way works better for the game overall. I'm just pointing out my opinion on why it feels different.

Edit:

PS: Oh also add to that an older, more jaded player base. People generally think raiding was better in the past when it was new to them. If you listen to the forums every single change Blizzard has made to the raiding setup for every single expansion has been the death knell of the game.
Edited by Kezmethron on 2/27/2012 12:52 AM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
13670
and i swear how many times can blizz use the same voice acting for its bosses where the boss says "run away little girl, run away"?


Dude...
Edited by Thistla on 2/27/2012 12:56 AM PST
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85 Troll Druid
14745
Thistla #1
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90 Undead Priest
16610
Alexor... A Confused man, or world's greatest troll?
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90 Undead Warlock
11780
lol, how did I miss that quote Thistla?

Shaman's can use shamanistic rage and survive. Throw them in the group with the tank with the 4 piece and rallying cry if it is isn't enough and rotate people in at the end who don't take damage.

PW:B disappears if the priest uses heroic will. You can probably do something better with that cooldown than use it for hour of twilight.
Edited by Milawler on 2/27/2012 11:19 PM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
10680
and i swear how many times can blizz use the same voice acting for its bosses where the boss says "run away little girl, run away"?


Dude...


This made my day
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
10730
I feel like people are going to be bored within a few weeks.. Most guilds seem to be progressing through heroic modes fairly quick.
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85 Dwarf Rogue
4260
They will probably release a filler patch such as they did with BC and Wrath ( Sunwell and Ruby Sanctum)
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85 Troll Druid
14745
Patch 4.4, Defend the Bluff.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
9600
POSTING IN 2 Parts

Part 1 of 2
Well I have had a chance to read everyone’s thoughts on this tier and I guess I will put my thoughts on paper and give everyone a chance to comment back.

Overall I really felt this was by far the best Tier for raiding in this expansion.. I liked Tier 11 with the exception of the end bosses it was pretty easy and only difficult due to gear requirements. It was very forgivable as far as damage and movement went with the exception being a few heroic fights..

What I really enjoyed about this tier is also the reason why the nerfs have really hurt this tier.. It’s the first tier where the DPS requirement and the Healing Requirements were completely unforgivable.. It didn’t come down to knowing how to play your class… it went beyond that.. It took organization, planning and optimizing on a fight by fight basis.. You didn’t need to do this on any of the previous tiers with the exception of hunters on Heroic Beth’tilac (Pre nerf)..

You weren’t going to kill bosses on heroic unless you did the work necessary to get the stuff/gear required… Pre Nerf Warlord… Pretty much impossible unless you had your 4 pieces AND the Tol Barad Trinket for the Dark Phases… and guess what the CD on that worked perfectly.. They did the same thing on Spine with the Valor Trinket.. The CD works perfectly for Tendon Burns… Tol Barad trinket worked great for Yorsahj but it also required Tank Reforging and gemming pure Stamina.. Same with Hagara unless your using a DK Tank.. If you didn’t do those types of things you only made it really really hard on yourself and honestly you didn’t do the work that everyone else was doing to kill it..

The other big part of this that made this instance fun was the PURE DPS requirement to beat the enrage of 90% of these bosses.. Warlord was extremely hard because you had to leave DPS on the boss just to beat the enrage AND still kill all the adds during the Dark phase.. We spent a week just trying to get sub 20% without hitting the enrage. Yorsahj we had to do the same thing to beat the enrage which left us with less people dps’ing the adds and pre nerf those things were dying right as it reached the boss… And I don’t need to mention Ultraxion.. On 25 man that fight is a huge dps check. We did it with the 5% nerf and I feel like we could have done it pre-nerf but it would have been really really close… You have to average as a raid 760k DPS to kill that boss… that’s a TON. Even Warmaster has a huge DPS requirement.. You basically have 2 minutes to burn 85 million health off the boss.. IF you kill(20%) Goriyana with 2 minutes left on the enrage.. This is all while moving back and forth for Shockwaves… Phase 1 was WAY WAY more difficult with the 5% nerf … with 10% nerf we can soak and still meet the dps requirement to stay ahead on each phase of adds.. Now the only one I haven’t seen is Madness and I hear its rather boring and not very difficult so its kind of a let down but Spine I have seen and I can say once again it’s a fight that requires you to reforge, respec, and have specialized equipment to even have a chance of beating. The DPS requirement is HUGE for the Tendons and requires your raid to get the valor point trinkets which just happen to have a CD that fits perfectly with tendons. Blizzard is pretty good about putting what you need in the game.. you just have to be aware that it may be something from a previous tier like the Tol Barad Trinket or a lower item level trinket like the 397 valor trinkets..

Which Segway’s into my next point about these fights Mana and CD Management. Most people didn’t to see Morchok until they had a significant amount of DS normal mode gear.. If you did that fight in firelands gear you would know that Raid CD management was critical to surviving the stomp damage and beating the enrage timer… Yes the enrage timer was an issue for us when we first did that fight (2nd week of release).. Healing management on Yorsahj was a cool mechanic that made people use stuff like hunter pets etc to get extra heals off.. CD rotations on Warmaster Roars, Red, Yellow, Black Combos on Yorsahj, Warlord Black Phase and Bounces, and on Spine Rolls made this challenging for healers.. I honestly think healers had it harder then DPS until the nerfs..

But just good class knowledge wasn’t enough either. 4 piece bonuses for the Tanks and Healers were critical for success on these heroics which means you had to put in your LFR time to get the set bonus early if you wanted to have any chance at success.. a 4 piece LFR was better then Heroic Tier 12 even though the ilvl was lower on the LFR gear… Warlord you weren’t getting down without the tank 4 piece and there were other fights like Ultraxion where the 4 piece was critical for healers and Raids..

Now I think I have gone on enough about these fights but I have 1 thing that I think Blizzard made a mistake on due to the design of these fights.

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90 Dwarf Warrior
9600
PART 2 of 2


The Burst requirements and DPS/Healing requirements combined with the coordination of switching targets and controlling when and when not to attack made these fights a nice change of pace, but they also made the nerfs trivialize them as well. With the exception of fights like Warmaster, Spine and Hagara the main difficulties were the mechanics I listed above.. If you lower the damage and the DPS requirements the fights become boring and Bland… which is what I am reading above from people.

A perfect example of this Warlord Zon’ozz the short enrage timer and the Damage during Black phase made Warlord difficult.. Prior to the nerf of the Black Phase Damage you had to have either a Warrior Tank 4 piece CD and the Tol Barad Trinket/Personal CDS AND either a Bear or DK 4 piece.. In fact you had to solo tank the fight to meet the damage requirement. Which meant you needed a Feral Kitty with a 4 piece who would tank the 2nd Claw in bear form and pop the CD.. Nerf the Damage in Black Phase and you don’t need to do all that stuff.. Nerf the Health on the Boss and I can have more people dps’ing the adds because I don’t need to leave players on the boss full time.. Nerf the damage and you don’t need to do as many bounces.. 9-9-7 was a must to kill it pre-nerf.. the debuff timing made it more difficult.. Now you can do 7-7-7 no problem..

If these were execution fights the nerf wouldn’t be so significant but these are push your !@#$ to the limits fights and when you give yourself a cushion then they become insignificant and boring… So I personally think these fights/Tier were fantastic and I recommend once you get through all this to turn off the buff and see what the fights are actually supposed to be like.. I know we are planning on going back and turning it off because there are several bosses we know will be fun as hell without it. Spine, Warlord, Yorshaj, Ultraxion, Warmaster, Madness will all be very different fights with those off..

Either way I enjoyed this thread… and Alexor If you really want to get annoyed add the Lava Wave warning for heroic Ragnaros…

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