Empty GCDs are not fun, warrior edition

I'm glad that there are intelligent people looking into this issue and providing Blizzard with important feedback, because I don't think dead GCDs sound fun either but I wouldn't have the wits to come up with a table or such eloquent wording on the problem.

liked.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Warrior
15680
Well, rage per second doesn't really matter for empty globals, and they're likely going to completely change the rage formulas anyway.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
14180
No, that's why I'm not too fussed, and yeah, the rage formulae need to change if Shield Slam is going to matter. 10 rage every 6 seconds is too much less than 10 rage every second.
-----
Attack tables, CTC, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
Reply Quote
100 Human Warrior
12805
02/16/2012 10:43 PMPosted by Waniou
No, that's why I'm not too fussed, and yeah, the rage formulae need to change if Shield Slam is going to matter. 10 rage every 6 seconds is too much less than 10 rage every second.


Basically what I was trying to explain earlier.

Waniou, if I could toss your thread a like on all my alts I would.

I'll say what I've been saying about Paladins, Blizzard: Dead GCD's aren't fun. At all. For anybody. Please don't force them down our throats.
Reply Quote
90 Goblin Warrior
10810
I cannot agree enough with this post. Perhaps the most fun part, for me, about playing a Warrior tank is doing the Sword and Board rotation, while throwing in cooldowns/shield blocks, and fitting in a Thunder Clap/Demo Shout or other such ability on the third GCD after 2 failed S&B potential procs. I tank on a Death Knight (Two, in fact), and one of the more boring things about it is when runes are down, and Runic Power is already consumed. It is boring to sit there doing nothing. Warriors remain fun because of the constant activity in the rotation, with cooldowns and the "off the gcd" Cleave/Heroic Strike use.

This is truly depressing in Mists, and I say this as someone who has been fairly optimistic and happy with the changes of Mists so far. I am not an opponent of the active mitigation style, as I think it brings up new challenges and an interesting way to measure up as tanks. I am not an opponent of the new talent system, as I think grasping for play style choice over min-maxing choice is an awesome way to go (after all, some of my favorite points are what to do with the last 2 after going 8-0-31 on my Warriors).

For as much as I support, and like what is going on in Mists of Pandaria, I do not like how clunky the play style of Warrior appears to be in the next expansion. If I am going to have such a clunky play style, it is encouraging me to look to play a Death Knight in MoP rather than a Warrior, when I have been a Warrior since a month after launch. Clunky Warrior play style or DK play style with the sexy Remorseless Winter ability...
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
14180
Don't get me wrong, there's very little about MoP that's disappointed me yet, just this 4.5s cooldown on devastate.
-----
Attack tables, CTC, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
10985
Don't get me wrong, there's very little about MoP that's disappointed me yet, just this 4.5s cooldown on devastate.


It does strike me as odd that devastate replaces an ability that appears to not have a cooldown with one that does. If you were intended to have both, like you do now, there'd be no issue. Well, LESS of an issue.

But then, I also thought the sunder armor debuff was supposed to go away.
Reply Quote
81 Gnome Death Knight
10100
02/15/2012 11:05 PMPosted by Waniou
We need a reason to press Heroic Strike or Cleave. We're being put in the same situation DKs have been in throughout Cata, and where pallies were before WoG got a cooldown. Damage vs mitigation is not a choice for tanks, we will always choose mitigation.


What if <some unspecified ability> has a <unspecified proc rate> chance of making the next Heroic Strike or Cleave cast in the next <unspecified time> free?

02/15/2012 11:05 PMPosted by Waniou
As someone else pointed out, this isn't even really active mitigation. There are no choices here. Let your rage build up until you have 60, hit Shield Block or Shield Barrier. Repeat until boss dies. It's no more active than our current rotation, except now, performing our rotation correctly gives us more damage reduction, and that we might get to choose between physical, blockable damage, and magic damage. You're dumbing down our rotation for no real benefit to us.


To contrast, paladins currently have the choice between a block buff / damage ability (Shield of the Righteous), self healing (Word of Glory), and a minor absorption / highly specialized buff (Sacred Shield.)

Would this be an acceptable form of AM in that you would need to react to existing circumstances and anticipate incoming damage to select the correct ability?

Admittedly the way paladins might work isn't rocket science but still allows for potential error. Did you let SS fall off for too long? Did you really just hit ShotR when the boss's biggest hitters during this phase aren't blockable?

02/15/2012 11:05 PMPosted by Waniou
This isn't a rotational issue, but warriors seem to have lost their short cooldown damage reduction cooldown (Our Divine Protection/Vampiric Blood-Bone Shield-Dancing Rune Weapon/Barkskin)


I'd vote an extra ability, working title of "I Didn't Feel That." Reduces damage taken by 20% for 10 seconds through shear will. 1 minute CD. I was going to go with "Light!" but I feared the SCA reference would be lost. You know the guys. The ones that yell Light after getting hit with a good, audible blow while grimacing.

Alternately, since Divine Protection is magical damage only now a glyph to spell reflect might work as well turning it into a DP clone.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

For filler abilities ... what if warriors (and others possibly) went the way of the monk and we removed auto attack?

For warriors, this could work out by giving a free ability on the GCD that generated rage in it's place. It may or may not do any damage. To make devastate worth hitting it may also be required to generate rage.

This would provide warriors with something to hit every global.

Also does anyone else keep reading the title to the tune of "Dead Puppies Aren't Much Fun?" Just replace puppies with globals.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
8390
It's weird that Dev replaces sunder, yet sunder has no cooldown.
Reply Quote
86 Tauren Death Knight
7490
Sunder costs 15 rage, though. Perhaps Blizz intends for warrs to give up rage if they wanna stack sunder early
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Warrior
0
02/17/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Cryotube
Sunder costs 15 rage, though. Perhaps Blizz intends for warrs to give up rage if they wanna stack sunder early


[sarcasm] It's a good thing that the previous 89 levels are going to be properly tuned, tested, and balanced with that in mind huh? [/sarcasm]
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/16/2012 08:28 PMPosted by Slashlove
You know that we have 9 sec AS, 6 sec Judgment, and 9 sec Consecrate going into this atm, right?


Yep.

02/15/2012 10:48 PMPosted by Alandrek
Prot Paladins won't be that bad off, even with CS/HotR going to 4.5s. We'll have Judgment every 6s, AS every 9s, and a 40% (instead of 20% now) chance to proc GC with CS/HotR - and everything except a non-GC AS will grant Holy Power. It works out to ~ 4 empty GCDs every minute, assuming no misses.


02/15/2012 10:53 PMPosted by Bravehearth
I did a sim of prot with those cooldowns, and it actually had quite a few gaps, Including double gaps. Someone else did a sim also and had similar results. I'd have to go find my notes and/or run the sims again, but I want to say it was something like 17% of all GCD's would be a gap.


Even using Alan's model that would be empty gcd every 15seconds or what would be equivalent to one every other ability cycle now. Not cool. Not fun.
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
7590
Waniou,

I haven't had a chance to fully sim this (so it excludes rage costs and S&B Proc rates) and probably won't bother until numbers are more finalized. However, I think you're missing that when CDs on abilities change your priority queue is likely to change.

Based on your numbers it looks like you use the Following priority system:
HT > TC (debuff) > SS > Rev > Dev > TC


If you re-arrange the priority system to:
TC (Debuff) > Dev > SS > TC > Rev > HT


I'm not having any empties even excluding S&B procs.

Infact it follows a pretty smooth sequence:
Dev -> SS -> TC
Dev -> Rev -> SS
Dev -> TC -> (HT or BS)

Repeat.


Thus it's going to look Un-remarkably like the Pally Rotation.

Warr: D -> X -> X
Pally: CS -> X -> X

It also brings up an interesting question:
Does Blizz want to have one rotation that has gaps (yours) be able to do more DPS than a rotation that doesn't have gaps (mine)?
Edited by Divinara on 2/17/2012 12:02 PM PST
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
It also brings up an interesting question:

Does Blizz want to have one rotation that has gaps (yours) be able to do more DPS than a rotation that doesn't have gaps (mine)?


Of course the moment that happens the lower dps rotation will not be viable unless its like the current paladin rotation of do i use inq for a rng based theoretical gain of 200dps or do i not use inq.

It would probably be pretty hard for the blues to set up 2 viable rotations like that intentionally...and then balancing them around set bonuses/procs would probably be a nightmare.

Not saying its not possible (we have that now as paladins) but it would probably be more trouble than what its worth.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
8390
Not cool. Not fun.


Then you're playing the wrong class, simple as that.
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
7590
Not saying its not possible (we have that now as paladins) but it would probably be more trouble than what its worth.


Just so people are aware:
Over 10 minutes...

The difference in Priority queues results in: (Waniou Minus Mine)
+10 Shield Slams
+25 Revenges
- 35 Devastates
-15 TCs


The main problem with Waniou's rotation is it effectively turns Devastates into a 6 second CD.
Edited by Divinara on 2/17/2012 12:27 PM PST
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/17/2012 12:20 PMPosted by Judgesyou
Then you're playing the wrong class, simple as that.


Naw.

Class if fine, the direction the dev want to take it is what bothers me...and judging from this and other threads on this issue alot of other people are bothered by it also.

/remembers the paladin rotation thread from 4.0 ptr.

Of course some people will make such claims to prevent people from giving any negative feedback. They will also start saying its too early to worry about the rotations and then the next day say its late to change the rotations.

Its alpha. We no better time to give feedback!
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
12965
02/17/2012 11:31 AMPosted by Celyndrashad
Even using Alan's model that would be empty gcd every 15seconds or what would be equivalent to one every other ability cycle now. Not cool. Not fun.


That's four empty GCDs a minute without using Consecration.

Per the latest changes, Consecrate costs less than half the mana it does now and can be used up to seven times a minute (mana dependent) - which is more than enough to fill the dead time.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
5230
i really don't think warrior playstyle needs to be changed at all, at least in pve. Prot, Fury, Arms all have quite engaging rotations, we don't need rage gain from special attacks.
On a side note, hunters would be much more fun with instant steady shot. Give it a different name or whatever and a cooldown.
Reply Quote
86 Human Paladin
6180
wow this issue really gets me wondering if anyone at blizz even plays a tank.

Dead GCD is not fun at all for a tank. It's like a DPS that only autoattacks for 3 second before even doing something talk about fun..

If it's to open up tanking to other players or to dumb it down you are doing it wrong Blizz the challenge in tanking is knowing what ability to press and when plus making sure to weave your defensive cooldown in between them.

Even though this is more for warrior's thread making CS 4.5 seconds is a really bad idea for pally tank unless you give us another ability that we can use in between.

With my paladin I try to not have many dead GCD and I like it that way it's kind of the feel of the spec to try to weave your attacks so you don't have space where you just look at your toon autoattacking something.

to that I will say that when Ghostcrawler told us that if the game is not fun if you are not pressing something is that we fail... well to that I can say that yeah for us to have fun we must press buttons but in a orderly fashion.

In conclusion trying to put dead GCD in tank rotations is dumb if you want my advice just put hit cap for all tank spec so we can just focus on mitigation stats and keep the rotations where we can hit something every GCD.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]