Topic
[Druid] MoP + Savage Roar Problem
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Edited by Reygahnci on 2/17/12 9:14 AM (PST)
Savage Roar, as the tooltip is on the MoP talent calculator, is a problem. It has been reverted to the Wrath of the Lich King model of providing an increase in damage output by 30% for the duration.
The reason that this is a problem is because this is not a damage cooldown. It is not a buff that will make us stronger. It is an ability that will be required to be kept up 100% to maintain competitive dps. In PvE, this is a fine design (though a little awkward for rotations) and many Ferals enjoyed it in Wrath; however, in PvP, this is a big problem. Feral has a lot of difficulty generating combo points and our energy regeneration is fixed, so we are limited in that resource as well. To put it frankly, to get SR up, a minimum of 60 energy is required, and any Hunter, Rogue, or Druid can remove the buff from us with 1 instant-cast ability (Shiv, Tranq. Shot, Soothe). This is not the same as Avenging Wrath (or any dps buffs like that); Avenging Wrath has a CHANCE to get dispelled when an offensive dispel is used, and when Avenging Wrath is NOT up, Retribution Paladin damage is still strong. It certainly is not 30% less when AW is not up. Feral, on the other hand, uses 60 energy and minimum 1cp to get up SR, and 1 instant cast ability guarantees that SR is removed, thus reducing the damage output of the Feral by 30%. SR needs to go back to increasing white damage and being a much smaller portion of the Feral damage. 30% is way too much; it becomes mandatory to deal damage and is trivially dispelled in PvP... it makes Hunters/Rogues/Druids hard-counters to Ferals. |
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It certainly isn't anything like Avenging Wrath; it should be more like Rip/Rupture/Slice and Dice/etc, which are necessary to maintain steady high DPS but do not noticeably affect our burst damage. You make a good point.
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And what makes you think that Ferals will be in a bad spot when SR isn't up? Comparing an ability that is coming in the future to how it was more than a year ago isn't exactly logical. This is not the same as Avenging Wrath (or any dps buffs like that); Avenging Wrath has a CHANCE to get dispelled when an offensive dispel is used Not against any kind of decent players it won't. If a class has an offensive dispel and he's not immediately required elsewhere he will be stripping filler buffs off of all of the enemies. |
Because in PvE, it's assumed it will be up 100% of the time, which means that our DPS output in both PvP and PvE will be balanced around it. In other words, if you could compare two classes, the feral would always do 30% less damage than the other that doesn't have those kind of mechanics. |
He will also only be able to dispel once every 8 seconds which gives AW a good chance of having an ok duration.
The problem that arises is this: It is a finisher ability that is basically expected on you at all times which means that it if we do not have it up we cant still be doing 100% damage as it pushes us up to 130% ish damage when we do which would be overpowered. -- Ultimately, though, its a numbers game and if they reduce the effect of it, say to 10% or something and upped our damage outside of the effect to the point we are 90% of normal without it then is that a preferable solution? |
Because we played in Wrath and we've seen how this story ends already. |
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I realy wish they turned Savage Roar in an offensive cooldown rather then something that you are required to have in order to mantain dps. Bad DPS mind you.
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This. It certainly isn't anything like Avenging Wrath; it should be more like Rip/Rupture/Slice and Dice/etc, which are necessary to maintain steady high DPS but do not noticeably affect our burst damage. You make a good point. Thanks for the support. Savage Roar, as you said, should give some amount of damage that makes it required in PvE, but it should not be an ability that affects ALL our abilities. In fact, the best change Feral received in PvP was making it so that SR was no longer mandatory for dealing strong damage. We simply do not have the cp-gen, energy regeneration, or protection from dispelling that is needed to make SR mandatory.
If Feral is competitive damage when SR is not up, then it would be like Avenging Wrath except it would not have a cooldown, and it would mean that in PvP, if a Feral went against a team without a Druid/Hunter/Rogue, it would be a clear-case of auto-win because the Feral would out-damage everything by ~30%. The flip-side of the coin was the case in Wrath - Ferals who did not apply SR at all did at least 30% less damage than everything else; SR had to be up 100% for a Feral to deal competitive damage. This is horrible design for PvP and borderline decent in PvE... it should go back to increasing white damage. |
Savage Roar, Slice and Dice, Inquisition, Empowered Shadows, Hunter's Mark, Pulverize... these effects aren't exactly uncommon, and Blizzard is just adding more all the time. |
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Edited by Reygahnci on 2/17/12 10:07 AM (PST)
It is completely fine that these types of effects are not uncommon. It is not okay that SR is primed to be 30% of a Feral's damage. Requiring that a finisher be up 100% for competitive damage for a class that struggles keeping up a completely separate finisher due to a lack of CP-gen and energy regeneration is bad enough, but one finisher that is trivially dispelled by Druids, Rogues, and Hunters that is effectively a "-30% damage" debuff to Ferals is terrible design. Savage Roar needs to be reverted to providing a minor buff to sustained damage (like it does presently). EDIT: To put this into perspective, this would be the equivalent to Shamans, Warlocks, and Warriors having a zero cooldown ability that read: "Applies the cripple debuff to the target reducing all damage done by 30%. Lasts 1 hour. Physical dispel type. May only be applied to Rogues." and then Rogues get a new finisher that reads: "25 energy, instant cast 1 combo point: Removes Cripple 2 combo points: Removes Cripple 3 combo points: Removes Cripple 4 combo points: Removes Cripple 5 combo points: Removes Cripple" It does nothing except allows them to deal damage effectively. It's just terrible design! |
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Edited by Hippyrip on 2/17/12 10:06 AM (PST)
I really think blizzard is just trying to do away with ferals and have all ferals reroll monk. In my opinion as far as PVP and PVE goes they should just leave SR as is. It works fine now and doing this will put us in a deeper hole than we are already in.
I might also add our hole is about 30 ft deeper than anyone elses... :(( EDIT: If everything was left as is the only thing that could even possibly make us competitive would be making our energy regen up to par with the rate that rogues energy regens. |
I really think blizzard is just trying to do away with ferals and have all ferals reroll monk. In my opinion as far as PVP and PVE goes they should just leave SR as is. It works fine now and doing this will put us in a deeper hole than we are already in. Dont forget its still mostly mechanics phase rather than numbers phase. |
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Edited by Hippyrip on 2/17/12 10:17 AM (PST)
I really think blizzard is just trying to do away with ferals and have all ferals reroll monk. In my opinion as far as PVP and PVE goes they should just leave SR as is. It works fine now and doing this will put us in a deeper hole than we are already in. Fact of the matter is keeping up a rip,rake,SR on an encounter where there is target swapping will be so incredibly difficult to do and ferals will be viable in no way. I really believe our tier bonus kept us above water this tier so to speak. Without being able to 1 CP FB to refresh rip from 60-25% I really can't see us doing anything spectacular come MoP. There is a lot of ground to be made and I really hope blizz comes to their senses and realizes what is wrong and what needs to be fixed/left the same. Edit: Increasing the rate at which our energy regens could be a really easy fix to the problem, I am no genious and I sure as hell don't have all the answers but I believe this is one very possible, very strong course of action. |
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It is already the case where keeping up Rip and Rake in an encounter where swapping is important makes Ferals terrible (PvP situations rely on FCC->Ravage for target swapping at the moment as a band-aid fix, and that's going away in MoP).
It is fine if Blizz wants to say "we think that SR should be part of the rotation for Ferals in PvE". They should leave SR as-is and it WILL be a part of the dps rotation in PvE without destroying Ferals in PvP. By stating that it will encompass some flat percentage of ALL OF OUR DAMAGE, SR is broken by design. SR should be reverted to increasing white damage by a portion and having no effect on Rip, Rake, Shred, Mangle, FB, etc. SR should not apply to direct damage abilities at all. |
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I think they should STOP giving us utility and CC and started giving us more thing to generate CPs and Energy. The new Soul of the Forest is just GARBAGE. 10 Energy for a Finishing Move? While Rogues have a proc of 25 energy for free! We have to give up a talent for those 10 energy. They should make so rip and rake generated energy and combo points.
Everytime Rip crits it has a chance of giving you 10/25 energy. Everytime Rake crits it has a chance of generating 1 CP at your target(so you can have a rake on one targets and generate CP on others). |
It is completely fine that these types of effects are not uncommon. I forgot I switched characters; I'm Eimon from earlier and I agree with you completely. I was just saying that Savage Roar does not need to be a cooldown as long as it's designed with proper regard to burst balance. |
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I forgot I switched characters; I'm Eimon from earlier and I agree with you completely. I was just saying that Savage Roar does not need to be a cooldown as long as it's designed with proper regard to burst balance. Okay, right. SR on live is exactly where it should be - it provides a boost in sustained damage overall without being mandatory for situations where CP-gen and Energy being fixed regeneration are hard to manage (read: PvP). SR on live is perfect, imo. It cannot be reverted back to the 30% bonus without 1) it becoming undispellable 2) Feral given some way to generate CPs more effectively 3) Feral given some way to generate energy outside of Tiger's Fury |
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I think feral should be given that even without altering SR. |
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I think that most agree with you, but I think that SR accounting for 30% of all damage (SR accounts for 30% of rip, rake, mangle, shred, fb...) is of larger importance at the moment. Once the developers realize how terribly designed SR is as a 30% damage bonus and revert it to a white-damage bonus, then we can start talking about our lackluster CP-gen and energy generation. |
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This needs to be addressed.
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