February 15 Update to Mists Talent Calculator

90 Orc Warrior
11610
I have to say, im not very thrilled at seeing War Banner(Passive) in the warrior list for level 87.

Taking Demoralizing Shout and Challenging Shout rolling them into a banner seems rather odd given that one is an "oh crap" button and the other is a debuff.

Having this go through will make a Prot warrior's job more of a pain than it has been in a long time. Keeping demo up on targets is something all warriors should be doing, but making them pick between keeping the debuff or an aoe taunt/fixate just doesnt make sense. Looking at the times on whats listed already means that if i use the mocking banner, i would be without the demo banner for 30 seconds. I understand making choices for interesting gameplay, but you arent making any other classes make a choice like this, you arent making pallys give up their aoe taunt in favor or something else, dk's dont give up army in favor of death strike. There is no reason to make warriors have to choose to drop demo in order to taunt and then not be able to put demo back up for 30 seconds. Please reconsider this.
100 Goblin Warlock
14545
Do the dev's have any idea how to design warriors, or are we going to just be regurgitated feral druids with less abilities / design mechanics? Really?
Really?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxiQ9JCKvE

>:P
85 Orc Warlock
3535
The nerfs to the Warlock stuff was definitely expected.
I like seeing more stuff cost health instead of having a long cooldown.
Very necromancer-ish, but I fear we may remain in the "run with a healer or GTFO" territory we've currently in.
Edited by Nacholicus on 2/15/2012 3:49 PM PST
90 Pandaren Rogue
10475
My general thoughts on the rogue changes:

Overall, my impression is fairly favorable. I don't PvP, so I can't speak from that perspective. From a raiding perspective, however, what I do see makes me scratch my head in a couple places and cheer in others.

Cheers:
Raid melee/ranged haste buff regardless of spec. [Double woot]

Moving expose armor from a finisher to a combo point generator. [useful if the raid comp doesn't have a feral or a warrior -- ours often does not] (Going one step further, it seems a bit of a waste of energy and immediate damage when other classes/specs can get this for essentially a global cooldown and stack it up to 3 times in the same global cooldown {even in the just released talent tree}. So, the leading question is will a glyph the stacks it applies on use and/or remove the energy cost?)

Jeers:
Combat's mastery has been gutted by about 50%. (not sure why this is.)

Utility poisons would make more sense on the same tier to give a 'choice' for utility - which would remove potential pvp/pve conflicts

Shadowstep and Prep on the same tier seem a bit out of place. Prep may be better served in Shuriken throw's spot in the last tier as a 'dps cd/survival' choice. Prep is particularly useful in PvP - or as Subtlety in PvE, but otherwise not in great use in combat PvE (minorly so in assassination PvE). Edit to clarify this point: Vanish is the biggest ability used which assassination would find valuable on Prep. Combat, similarly. But, prep doesn't provide a particularly good 'bang' for the buck as it would in sub and/or pvp.

The throws (deadly/shuriken and potentially a new 3rd option {or even Nerve Strike}) make more sense in their own tier as well - for the same reason as poisons - and allow for an interesting 'choice'.
Edited by Angosia on 2/15/2012 4:32 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9465
I strongly dislike this as a holy pally i want all those talents!!!! don't make me choose!!!!
56 Gnome Priest
500


Starting with the name. HOLY nova?


We could change it to bubble nova. :o That's more catchy, maybe.


... I could so see Trinxie giggling about how her job is easier than anyone else's. "All I do is blow bubbles all day!"
100 Tauren Shaman
11750
So the new shaman spell Ascension says it transforms Chain Lightning into Lava Beams. What exactly does Lava Beam do? Or am I blind and I missed it somewhere.
MVP
90 Worgen Warlock
10465
02/15/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Kaivax
I think it was the great feedback provided by paladins that got them to step up their game with the paladin trees. It's a shame the same wasn't applied to the priest trees.


Please note: the current iteration of the talent trees just shouldn't be viewed as the result of success or failure of player lobbying efforts or feedback.

I cannot overstate how much we appreciate all of the feedback we get. We spend a lot of time reading it all, and compiling it, and sharing it between teams here. Nonetheless, if the measurement of successful feedback is that the developers implement a suggested idea, then expectations are too high.

We are going to continue to work on all of the talent trees until Mists is released.


Oi vey, that wasn't what I meant. When the talent trees originally came out there was a lot of feedback from all sides, and it's heartening to see you guys listening as evidenced by the massive changes you did to the paladin/warlock/DK/mage trees. Before you clarified the fact that the priest changes aren't fully complete yet, it was hard not to look at it, see almost 0 changes, and wonder where all the feedback that was given (and there was a lot of it) for priests went.

We know you're listening, and you've clarified that you pushed these changes out without them being fully complete for certain other classes. That's fine. I didn't mean to imply that one group was more successful at getting changes than others based purely on the feedback alone.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
8400
Wow, I'm really impressed with the paly's talent tree. About a week ago, I posted some thoughts I had about it, and while I'm not sure if you guys read it, this addressed nearly all my concerns. You did away with the boring lvl 75 tier, brought an awesome new lvl 90 tier, and made the healing tier be an interesting choice. I'm not convinced about losing eternal glory, sacred shield, and ardent defender, and I hope they show up again in some way, but even with these complaints, you guys did good.
100 Orc Hunter
16330
I would like to see more damage oriented options available in the hunter tree like the unique ammunition options in the previous build and less utility oriented options that are overwhelming the current design.



That is all.
90 Orc Warrior
11610
02/15/2012 03:51 PMPosted by Elidra
you arent making pallys give up their aoe taunt in favor or something else

No, Righteous Defense is just plain gone, no choice about it.


Well thats just as lame, i guess i missed that when scanning things over. I still feel its wrong to make warriors make that type of choice, especially in a 10 man raid environment where buffs/debuffs are limited already.
85 Night Elf Warrior
15680

We are iterating a lot on tank rotations right now. We want rage (and all tank resources) to be something players actually use for mitigation, because we think that will be more fun than having a resource that gets ignored. Under this model, Protection warriors can’t have many DPS abilities that cost rage, because rage will be too valuable for Shield Block and Shield Barrier on fights where survival is a challenge. An ability with no resource cost needs some kind of cooldown or it will just be macro’ed and / or spammed, which isn’t a lot of fun.

Prot warriors have a lot of abilities to manage: Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Thunder Clap, Shield Block and so on, as well as several emergency buttons to handle situations such as streaming adds. We’re okay with melee specs having an occasional free GCD, as long as it doesn’t happen with frustrating regularity.


My problem here is that I consider a free GCD every 6s or so to be frustrating regularity. Having Devastate be a total filler ability like it is currently doesn't seem like it would cause any particular issues at all. I think my personal problem with the 4.5s cooldown is that it just seems like a change for the sake of a change; not an actual improvement to the spec.
100 Draenei Shaman
9730
Yay Shaman! :D Can't wait to see final level 95 talents.
90 Orc Death Knight
6675
Why do Frost Death Knights get both melee haste and physical vulnerability and Unholy Death Knights only get physical vulnerability? In 10 man groups, this will force many of us to play Frost if we don't want to, especially with AMZ now becoming a talent.
85 Undead Warrior
3005
I have some concern not over the talent trees themselves but of some changes being made to certain class/specs...specifically prot warriors. The way I'm reading the trained skills, revenge's cooldown is being raised to 9 seconds, shield slam is still 6, and devastate is still 4.5 That leaves a lot of gaps in a normal tanking "rotation." One of the reasons I like to tank on my warrior is that there is, provided proper rage management, always an attack to perform. I do not like, for example, prot pallies because they're cooldown-based and not resource management based.

I don't deny that prot warriors don't have to manage their resource nearly as much as say, dps warriors, but I feel like this is a very large change in the playstyle of the protection warrior and makes them a bit more similar to paladins than I'm comfortable with.

Note that all this assumes HS/Cleave still work the same way they do now in that they are off gcd. If they are being reworked to be an actual gcd-triggering attack, I suppose that alleviates this issue. But as I'm reading it, I'm far from thrilled.


We are iterating a lot on tank rotations right now. We want rage (and all tank resources) to be something players actually use for mitigation, because we think that will be more fun than having a resource that gets ignored. Under this model, Protection warriors can’t have many DPS abilities that cost rage, because rage will be too valuable for Shield Block and Shield Barrier on fights where survival is a challenge. An ability with no resource cost needs some kind of cooldown or it will just be macro’ed and / or spammed, which isn’t a lot of fun.

Prot warriors have a lot of abilities to manage: Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Thunder Clap, Shield Block and so on, as well as several emergency buttons to handle situations such as streaming adds. We’re okay with melee specs having an occasional free GCD, as long as it doesn’t happen with frustrating regularity.


Where does that leave fury and arms warriors when all the 75 tier is primarily tanking abilities and Spell Reflection requires a Shield? Those abilities don't really benefit us very much.

And if you're going to make Deadly Calm a level 90 ability choice, why not give it back the effect it currently has in Cataclysm?

I'd rather Storm Bolt take the place of Staggering or Disrupting Shout in the 45 tier and have something better in it place in the 90 tier. It's just not a very interesting option there to me at least.

Other than that I have no complaints, keep up the good work.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9325
Got a question regarding Protection Paladin and Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous

In cataclysm, both abilities are linked and thus share their cooldown, what's more, they have an invisible haste buff baked into them when you choose the Protection spec that reduces their CD from 4.5 sec (which is what normally is for Retribution paladins) to 3.0 secs.

My questions are as follow, is this invisible haste buff still present for Protection Paladins going forward to 5.0, as the new talent tree update currently shows both CS and HoTR having 4.5 sec CDs and thus, actually in game they have a 3.0 sec cooldown -- or do they actually have a 4.5 sec cooldown? And if they have a 4.5 sec CD now, are they still linked or are they now unlinked?


Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous still share a cooldown, with a base of 4.5 seconds for both specs. Sanctity of Battle can lower this cooldown for Retribution.


I don't know that I like this.

When tanking, I like my rotation to be as simple as possible so I can focus my mind on the fights themselves and when to use special abilities (for example, an interrupt or defensive CD.)

I like the 3X3X3Finisher model because it requires little thought about the rotation and I can think about things that matter to me when tanking - moving bosses, moving myself, using defensive CDs, and generally staying alive while picking up things so they don't beat on my friends.


On the other hand, I HATE Retribution right now, and the 4.5sec CDs on CS and DS are a big part of the reason why (the other part is juggling all the self-buffs, which just annoys me.) On the other hand, I know a lot of people that love Ret the way it is, and more power to them.

I really hate to think that Prot is going to be more like Ret and Ret more like Prot in that regard. It'll basically just make both sides less happy.



Now, I'm going to wait to see what you guys do to make things up and try to work out a rotation, but...yeah. These are my concerns. If I wanted an overly complicated tanking rotation, I'd play a Warrior. <_<
100 Human Warrior
16470
Heroic leap: 28 points of damage to each target in the area of effect? May as well just have a lower CD and remove the damage effect altogether.
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