Edited by Vulgrym on 2/15/12 6:04 PM (PST)
I'm having difficulty understanding the Arms rotation. I'm assuming there's missing data? Observations:
- Rend no longer exists; Deep Wounds now procs off of MS (BT and Devastate as well) now takes its place (guaranteed proc, not dependent on criticals)
- Taste for Blood procs off of Deep Wounds
- Overpower can only be used every nine seconds via TfB
- MS on a six second CD
- Slam now costs 30 rage
- Heroic Strike no longer on a separate GCD and with a 1.5 second CD; now 30 rage
- Colossus Smash now 30 rage (Sudden Death unchanged)
It appears as though there are dead GCDs being built into the rotation, given how expensive and stretched out abilities have become. There are a couple of potential abilities via talents that can be used on non-rotational CDs (eg. Impending Victory and Bloodbath/Stormbolt), but ... where's the meat?
Is this intended design or just due to things not being fully fleshed out? If building in dead GCDs is intended, let me just say - DO NOT WANT. I will absolutely despise that playstyle.
As for Fury, maybe you've fixed some of the monotony of the spec by pushing BTs CD to 6 seconds, but the rotation still seems barren and prone to Wild Strike spam -- although with WS costing 30 rage outside of Bloodsurge procs, you're not exactly going to be able to spam it constantly. Are we seriously looking at BT > RB > WS (all on 6 second CDs) "spam" as the core of the rotation with occasional HS and CS? BORING. Also, while I applaud the idea of reducing the GCD to 1 second via Bloodsurge, that's pretty much pointless in a rotation that has dead time built in.
Maybe this all makes more sense if the rage model is being tweaked and we're going to be flooded with new sources of our precious resource, but not seeing it. On that note, baking 10 rage into MS/BT/Devastate is really pointless if that's the extent of the 'control' Warriors are being given over rage generation and consumption. We're already heavily incentivized to use those abilities on CD so playstyle doesn't change at all.
For now, I'll assume these gaps exist because this is a work in progress. Can't wait for beta.
Edited by Jemmy on 2/15/12 5:57 PM (PST)
Sure, but it's a 3s cast that doesn't allow you to prep a group while maintaining heals on the tank. It also doesn't heal back damage unless it is completely untouched and only after an unknown time. Couple that with a single AoE healling spell and this will put disc priests at a severe disadvanage in situations of constant damage. It's fine if you have the time to put the shields up (15s is needed to cover a 5 man while doing no other healing) and no one is taking damage. If there's a constant aura you have no hope of holding back the damage and getting people topped back up. Any damage to the shell will remove the healing proc on expiration.
You can't even heal yourself and one other person any more. Unless the incoming damage model has no constant aoe damage, disc priests will be at a significant disadvantage, especially at lower gear levels.
There's only mana intensive flash heal and greater heal, plus the unknown of holy nova, to try and get everyone back up. With a situation such as a 'decimate' type ability that knocks everyone down to extremely low health, how is a disc priest going to heal that back up quickly and effectively? You can't prevent it happening, and recovery in those situations is a lot harder when you have abosprbs as your primary healing tool.
I prefer the prevention healing approach, dont' get me wrong. It is something I consider makes a whole lot more sense than waiting for damage to happen. But encounter designs and spell cast times aren't always going to allow you to stop every ounce of damage, and there's a common boss design of pulsing damage auras. I can't see how disc will be able to deal effectively with those situations given the current information.
Any intentions of giving Arms/Fury their own defensive cool down (making shield wall Prot only) and, more importantly, allowing Arms/Fury to spell reflect with a weapon as opposed to having to sword and board swap and then immediately back to 2h/dual wielding?
Just change the icon on spell reflect to anything but a picture of a shield and then it's perfectly justifiable. :)
What's the deal with soul fire for destro warlocks? Why is it at such a low level with the only thing making it bearable to cast as destro being at 86, while incinerate sits at 40something?
Can you take into consideration the removal of being able to destroy cooldown totems and limit it to non-CD totems only? Or at least give them a sizable amount of health so it takes a bit of time to destroy them?
Can you also look into putting searing flame's mechanic onto something that isn't searing totem, since no enhancement shaman honestly likes the thing and it's frustrating to try and get the AI to work with you, especially in pvp. On melee hits would be nice.
With rogue poisons getting condensed into one dps poison and a ton of utility poisons, can something similar be brought up for enhancement's weapon imbues? A way for windfury to cover the dps flametongue added and allow the shaman to have earthliving or frostbrand on their OH for utility.
Thanks, I've been wondering about that since the original calculator release as holy has never had it listed.
Edited by Lilendae on 2/15/12 6:04 PM (PST)
(As far as I can tell, none of the classes are 'fine as it is', and they all need feedback, so what's the point of arguing?)
I'm going to do some Mindcrafting (tm) for what is currently shown for shadow priests, in a PvE situation
-Tier 1: Psyfiend, without a doubt. Even the second line is a wording mistake and not an AOE CC, it's still a CC. Mind Control is awesome and all, and I've managed to streamline doing it, but it only works on humanoids (Side thought: Mind soothe works humanoids and dragonoids, why can't MC also work on the other type of consistently intelligent mobs?), and requires coordination with the tank. Not that I don't like MC, I do, I use it at every opportunity, and it the most unique CC in the game IMO. Shackle I used in the ICC 5-mans, and occasionally other places, use right now in Blue Dragonshrine of the DS 5-mans. But the Psychic Scream would put me on par with hunters, rogues, mages, etc in terms of CCCCCCC that is beginning to not look real. Plus I can use Psyfiend for 'oh !@#$' moments.
-Tier 2: Body and soul, still without a doubt, unless the fight has snares that aren't ignorable/easily gotten rid of.
-Tier 3: Whichever one theorycrafters tell me will get me the most damage, although I doubt Divine Star will be in the running.
-Tier 4: Final prayer. Don't have to interrupt DPS to do it, and it might as well be built into the trees to free up a tier.
-Tier 5: An actual choice this time! Execution vs. long-term/average fights vs. burst.
-Tier 6: Not Vow of Unity, can't use it at all. Void shift will be interesting and awesome, especially when combined with dispersion to soak things, but very situational, so probably Vamp for most of the time.
With DP gone, we loose imp DP and a source of self-heals, but I can see where two DoTs was seen as redundant. Build the DP mechanics into SW:P would be my suggestion. Without it, even more weight is put on choosing Vampiric [Why was the name changed anyway?]
In other words, it's pretty cookie-cutter. A tier that was [Personal benefit with a rating of 3] vs. [Raid-wide benefit rating 1] vs. [Shared duo benefit like locks and mages, benefit rating 2] miiiiight not be, and also re-introduce more utility.
Inspiration is gone, and because I fail I thought the shadow haste buff was gone too, which lead to the thought of a tier that's a choice between what buff you give; damage reduction, haste, annnnnnd...something. Hit? Not stamina, keep Fort as a baseline.
Also, is Darkness completely gone, as in not built into Shadow? I can't see it as a glyph since it doesn't change a mechanic, and is just the damage increaser that is being moved away from when it comes to choices.
I can't see Twisted Faith as a glyph, since it is so core to gearing for Shadow priests, and hope it's built into the spec. Don't know if druids and shamans also lost thier spirit->hit thing.
I'm going to go ahead and guess at shadow glyphs, with what they do written down because I have the memory of a bug:
-Harnassed shadows (Second part, gaining an orb from being critically hit)
The problem would be that it would be like the tiers, just more of the stuff we've seen before. Many of those should be built in (In my opinion), with cool new toys to play with coming out. Especially since, for PvE, it would be a no brainer on what to choose, since 3 of those 9 are PvP/solo, and 1 is unlikely to still be here. Whether or not those current-talents are going to be available will change our priority/rotation significantly. And by significantly I mean reapplying SW:P with procs vs. lining your procs up at the beginning and maintaining, SW:D even being relevant, mana regen, and the seeming RNG of casting Mind Blast.
And here's to hoping we get Greater Heal, PoM, and Renew as baseline spells.
I have a serious concern about how it is you're deciding what abilities should be all inclusive in the given abilities across a class versus something you should pick for fun. Personally I find Blood Tap far too useful to place into a talent slot even for Frost or Unholy specs. It's especially annoying because you're forcing us to pick it over another very handy ability that allows us a chance to randomly reactivate a rune. As a blood DK I find it saddening and insulting that I have to choose between the two versus being able to choose dropping something else that's less useful to me such as Army of the Dead in favor of Blood Tap or Runic Empowerment. I can also say the same thing about having to choose between Death Pact and Vampiric Blood, both are extremely useful tanking cooldowns seeing as I can increase my healing received and summon a ghoul then sacrifice it for 25% of my health back.
The major concern here is that even though you say you want us to be able to choose between fun abilities that don't have any bearing upon rotations or utility skills, you're really not balancing these choices between the roles the DK class can fulfill in most talent tiers. As it stands it feels like you're taking away a lot of meaningful abilities regardless of giving the players the "choice" of what they can use. Granted, yes, this can be seen as a way of removing the whole cookie cutter syndrome we tend to see now it doesn't exactly do anything towards really helping the player play the class they want.
As it stands with me being a Blood DK first and foremost, it feels like I'm getting kicked in the butt and shafted with talent choices while Frost and Unholy get a major free range on DPS type abilities. Say what you will, but the system doesn't seem to strike a decent balance between DPS and Tanking for DKs currently.
One positive thing about this whole thing though is that you took out Bone Shield and made it a Blood DK specific ability, that much was done right.
I have a question about the Druid level 87 ability, Symbiosis.
Here's the process:
Here are some examples of spells gained through Symbiosis. The spells shared focus on utility, cooldowns, and survival. (Adding Fireball to a Moonkin’s rotation sounds cool on paper, but wouldn’t actually be fun in the long run.)
Balance: Chains of Ice, Mirror Image, Mass Dispel
Feral: Feign Death (Play Dead!), Frost Nova, Soul Swap
Guardian: Ice Trap, Fear Ward, Consecration
Restoration: Ice Block, Hand of Sacrifice, Leap of Faith
Holy Paladin: Rebirth
Arms/Fury Warrior: Enrage
Enhancement/Elemental Shaman: Solar Beam
There are a lot more coming, but we'll keep some surprises for now, and many are still subject to change after testing.*
*Including all of those just listed.
Also, the devs did an awesome job on the pally talents, especially the ret tree.
While it looks like we're getting some blue posts, let me ask some Priest questions.
I agree. I usually only use Mind Spike as an opening salvo because it increasing my Mind Blast crit chance, but the wiping of all DoTs (including Vampiric Touch!) means I usually don't use it a second time on the same boss. Also looking at the tooltip for mind blast, I'm nervous about the 'requires one shadow orb to cast' as this has the horrible potential of turning my most used spell into something awkward to use. Aside from proc. chances, are we really going to have to start counting and portioning mana *and* shadow orbs in battle just to cast spells?
Looked at the rogue tree and got a couple questions. If you can answer any of these questions it would be much appreciated.
1. In the first row - Subterfuge says stealth breaks 3 seconds after dealing or receiving hostile actions. Does this mean that the first 3 seconds of an open are like a mini shadowdance or are you unable to use stealth only abilities after the first open abilty?
2. In the ability section it appears that feint has no cooldown. Is this just a display issue?
3. Sadface@ prep and step still in same row
4. Paralytic poison - Is it on a shared DR with kidney and cheapshot?
5. Does shuriken toss apply poisons
6. Are party and raid members able to move while under the effect of Shroud of Concealment? Is there a duration on the stealth buff ?
Thanks again if you can answer any of these questions. WTB beta
Edited by Kek on 2/15/12 6:11 PM (PST)
Can't say I'm a fan, having to choose between prep and mobility.. really?
Would flare be considered a hostile action against your character? I guess it still wouldn't be great anyways, a whole 3 seconds to try and open before you get opened on. I understand this can work for some great openers though.
Cheat death vs Leeching Poison vs Elusiveness
Well it's either cheat death or elusiveness and I love my cheat death however Elusiveness sounds very appealing. Elusiveness may fix the 2nd tier problem I am imagining with not being able to survive melee if going the deadly throw route.
2nd Tier basically let's you choose between being able to survive vs casters or survive vs melee. Chaining shuriken with deadly throw sounds cool for when you're getting kited, will our deadly throw actually do a significant amount of damage at all? It has always been hilariously underpowered.
Anticipation and Versatility are going to be awesome
These are my first impressions on the rogue talent tree's... don't hate me please.
Edited by Amuramie on 2/15/12 6:07 PM (PST)
Any word on plans to allow rogues to do the same or similar DPS if they equip something that is not a dagger? IE Sub with maces or Assassination with swords, combat with a fist in the offhand? There are still plenty of abilities that force dagger usage.
Time for Shaman questions!
Will Elemental be getting a personal cooldown now that it's completely lost its old pal Elemental Mastery? I really liked the Feedback mechanic where you could lower the cooldown by casting Lightning Bolt, and I found that it was a fun part of the rotation. Does Elemental get anything to compensate its lost?
Fire and Earth Elemental Totem: why? Halving the cooldown does help, but Fire Elemental has been a major burden for this whole expansion. It does too much of our damage and it's too unpredictable and hard to control. Even with a halved duration it's still likely to be a major dps boost, and therefore a major dps loss in situations where we can't rely on it to do its full damage. This goes for Searing Totem too.
This isn't a question, but Nature's Guardian sucks. And it's not even an elemental, shamany spell. Please replace it with something awesome?
Where'd Repulsion Totem go? That was a really cool and unique spell, I was looking forward to it. Is it gone forever, or might we see it back in some form later on?
Totem health is just...bad. Healing Tide Totem has 10% of the Shaman's max health, but all of the other totems have a base 5 health. Will this be changed? Literally anything, even a critter, can kill our totems, and now that they're mostly on cooldowns, this is a bad design. Are we going to see all totems scale with Shaman health? 10% is still kinda low, but it's a huge improvement over single digit health.
Why put Windwalk Totem in the control tier? That doesn't make any sense to me.
Elemental doesn't seem to have Reverberation. All the shocks are 6 second cooldown, that's just too long and causes weird clunky things when you have to deal with both Flame Shock and Earth Shock/Fulmination. Personally, my idea would be to give Elemental a passive skill that removes the shared Shock cooldown, but that's just me. Will this at least be addressed at all?
And while we're on the topic of Flame Shock, I've noticed that Flame Shock's DoT is almost negligible. Is this spell ever going to feel like an actual DoT? Currently, it feels like a debuff I put on enemies so my Lava Burst will crit, it doesn't actually feel like it does damage. Will the damage contribution from Flame Shock be noticeable at all in MoP?
Those are my (mostly Elemental) Shaman questions, apart from the obvious "LEVEL 90 TIER I WANT TO KNOWWWWWWWW". Which technically isn't a question, but that's not the point.
Edited by Patolino on 2/15/12 7:06 PM (PST)
It looks like Blizzard just did the final blow on Retribution Paladins; putting a cd on cleanse is the final nail of the coffin to kill Retribution Paladins in a pvp scenario. We already have problems to stick on the target due to the gap closer/jack of all the trades “Long Arm of the Law” it doesn’t work if you have a snare on yourself; Now it’s 100% useless due to the 8 second cooldown on cleanse.
Let’s not forget Blizzards foolish attempt to change seal of justice.
Blizzard, please read this: just remove seal of justice and give us a real non-talent snare. Why? For about four years paladins didn’t use it at all; this is what we call a perfect example of bad design. It won’t be used in Pandaria either; no one is going to sacrifice a lot of damage for this snare. It’s not an option, it doesn’t work, and it’s purely bad design. How many years will it take to accept the feedback that players have given you?
It’s obvious that the person who made the new Paladin spells and skills only play holy, every talent compliments holy very well.
I’m glad that I know this now so I don’t have to waste my time waiting for the expansion. I’m going to call billing support and cancel my annual pass next month.
Some quick notes on the Paladin Talents:
Tier 1 is looking good now; the extra benefits on Speed of Light really had to go, especially since people apparently thought that the mix-and-matched role bonuses was a bug when they weren't. Personally, I think I'd be going for Long Arm of the Law, but it's also pretty cool to see Pursuit of Justice get a change that I know I championed (whether or not I was the first to suggest it, I don't know. I'm going to be egotistical and pretend that I was).
For Tier 2, it is still VERY strange to me that Retribution still has Seal of Justice, which is the same thing as Burden of Guilt. Only Burden of Guilt is better in every possible aspect because it doesn't replace the Seal. Seals are such a vital part of the Paladin class that I'm not sure WHY Seal of Justice even exists; I can't picture any situation where someone would pick Justice over Righteousness or Truth unless there's more changes going on then we know about. I'm going to personally chalk it up to oversight.
Tier 3 is another place where something I suggested actually got implemented (whether or not its me, again I am going to pretend that it is). Reducing Flash of Light's cast time is VITAL for Selfless Healer to work and I'm glad to see it implemented finally. Its nice to see Sacred Shield back, even if my precious Holy Shield is gone. Again. Eternal Flame seems a bit weird; I'm not crazy about the namesake (Inner Light seems more appropriate) and while the cost says "1 Holy Power," the wording says "Consumes all Holy Power." I'd fix one of those two to be clearer.
Tier 4 is a Tier where I'm very cautious to post. First off, I absolutely LOVE the concept of Unbreakable Spirit. I love the name, I love the reduction in duration of cooldowns, and I love the abilities it affects. I love this talent to the point where I'm not sure if that means its overpowered or not. Maybe its because I'm an RPer /shrug. Anyway, instead of using the terminology of percents, I would list actual seconds / minutes. I mean, when you realize that it drops Lay on Hands by a massive 30 seconds per Holy Power, Divine Shield by a respectable 9 seconds per Holy Power, and Divine Protection by 1.8 seconds per Holy Power, then all of a sudden things seem big and awesome. I'm not sure if I personally like the idea that its limited so much; I can understand for Divine Shield and Protection, as their cooldowns are already fairly short, but the power still leaves you waiting 5 minutes for Lay on Hands. I'm wondering if its not time to lower Lay on Hand's cooldown to a more usable level (I'm fairly certain its the longest cooldown in the game on an ability right now).
Oh, I should probably mention the other two, huh? Well, Clemacy hasn't changed, and it is a very good snap-choice; I think the slow gratification of Unbreakable Spirit is a nice contrast to the instant bonuses of Clemacy. The problem here, however, is that there are currently no Hands that improve survivability, while getting back Divine Protection and Lay on Hands is very much linked to survivability. AKA, there is no reason for a Protection paladin to take Clemacy over Unbreakable Spirit or Hand of Purity, the later of which could have very situational uses in PvE, and is very potent in PvE.
Tier 5 is basically unchanged from previous builds, and it is very much a preference-based pick. Its very nice at Tier 5, because it means we get all new shinies for Tier 6 ...
And what shinies these are, too! Holy Prisim is basically the 4.2 version of Holy Radiance, a spell I was very sad to see go. I love the added versitility on it, making it either a damaging spell or a healing spell on its primary target. My question for the Developers is whether or not you can target yourself with Holy Prism, giving yourself a nice big lump of healing and then radiating it outward to your allies. Light's Hammer embodies the concept of "Consecration that heals you" to the tee, and wonder if Light's Hammer would have been better if it simply modified Consecration. Execution Sentence / Stay of Execution is a little confusing on its wording; is it an area effect (like Flamestrike) or does it need to target something (like Living Bomb)? If it doesn't target something, I don't see how the game is going to be able to realize when you want to heal or when you want to damage. Overall, these three are cool concepts, but I think they need a bit more fleshing out.
Other notes, I thought it was interesting that "Seal of Command" basically upgrades into Seal of Truth. However ... what's the point if Seal of Truth is not a spec-specific ability? I'm wondering if Seal of Truth was supposed to be for Ret / Prot and a missing Seal of Insight was going to be for Holy, because the whole Seal / Judgment system does little for Holy aside from being a magical "activate mana regen" button. I don't see the point to an "upgrade with level" ability if that ability isn't one all Paladins use (why would Holy care if Seal of Command upgrades into Seal of Truth? Does whatever minuscule DPS increase they get really matter?)
I was happy to see Consecration return to its Burning Crusade / Wrath of the Lich King level of usability. At 22% mana and with the ability to roll it on the ground, it is definitely more acceptable to use. However, without hearing anything else about the very subtly hinted at mana restoration system, I can't say for sure (Dev Watercooler topic? Hint Hint Nudge Nudge?)
And ... Boundless Conviction. Oh ... Boundless ... Conviction ...
Where were you all my life? /swoon