February 15 Update to Mists Talent Calculator

90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Honestly I just think the concept of being a watered down, weak hybrid DPS for portions of a fight is just not going to work. The track record of encounters just does not support it when you really dig into the fights. Even if I accept that there are a couple, are we really going to have our signature tier designed around a once a tier fight?

I never said it was a good talent. It's pretty horribly implemented.

I was merely trying to provide examples for its intended use, at least currently. The idea of being able to switch to a different role on a cooldown can be pretty attractive for both tanks and DPS. Unfortunately the lack of available buttons or even Mastery will make it pretty much useless.
85 Human Death Knight
990
Shamans are suffering from a lack of theme per tier
Tier 1. is ok as the survival tier
Tier 2. is ok as the CC tier except windwalk totem needs to be removed (i thought that the point of using totems was that they all had active affects not static buffs). I would bring back the repulsor totem suggested last iteration of the talent trees.
Tier 3. lets call this the reset tier. Call of the elements is good. Keep it. Then should have Call of the ancestors which resets the cooldowns on all of your shock spells. Could then have call of the spirits resetting the cooldowns on your bloodlust/heroism.
Tier 4. Haste tier. Echo of elements should go to tier 5 and add back in Feedback. Your lightning bolt, chain lightning, stormstrike, healing wave, and greater healing wave reduce the cool down of your next shock spell by 3 seconds.
Tier 5. Healing tide totem should really go to resto. Maybe mana tide would be better in that slot however new cool totems should go in tier 6. For now this one should have echo of elements and ancestral guidance. Add focused insight. After casting a shock spell your next spells mana cost is reduced by 25% the cost of the shock spell and the effectiveness of the spell is increased by 10%.
Tier 6. Lets have some new totems.
85 Human Death Knight
990
Agreed that Mark of blood should replace vampiric blood which should return to the blood tree.
90 Draenei Death Knight
6485
I have quite a few things to say in regards to the Death Knight and Warlock stuff (primarily the Warlocks).

Death Knight Feedback
In the frost build I don't see any mention of the passive Nerves of Cold Steel that was utilized to improve dual wield frost. Warriors in Fury spec are getting access to their dual wield helping effects early on and both Titans Grip and Single Minded Fury at the same time, so why shouldn't the frost spec encompass both playstyles that they currently utilized as it is the one spec that made active use of being able to either use a single 2H weapon or dual wielding like a Single Minded Fury spec. Something that is always chosen by all current 4.0 Frost DK players should there in the proposed MOP skills.

In terms of the level 15 talent choices, all in all I don't really see the Vile Spew ability being put to use compared to the effective use of Rolling Blood or Unholy Blight. Unholy blight I see straight off as a good AE threat mechanic for tanks that can be equally as strong Rolling Blood in the application of the diseases (Rolling Blood obviously looking to be the choice for Frost/Unholy for quick application of diseases to AE targets and making the diseases at the cost of 1 Blood Rune instead of both an Unholy and Frost Rune to refresh which would open up their rotation to their harder hitting spells). If anything, I would change Vile Spew as it looks to be the weakest choice by far and barely even a competitor against the other two.


Warlock Feedback
I understand that Shadow Bolt was made the main nuke/filler spell for Demonology (even though it used to be Afflictions go to nuke/filler). And if I remember correctly, shadow bolt is supposed to transform into Malefic Grasp, but even then, affliction isn't given access to what is supposed to be our filler spell of choice until level 42. This does not bode well for me as I have always enjoyed playing affliction (and it feels bad enough your turning us into wanna-be shadow priests with our new channel filler) but if lowbies don't have access to this prime spell early on, it may affect their playstyle in the later game when they should be getting forced to utilize the spell the moment they chose the spec (level 10) rather 32 levels after the fact. To go halfway through the leveling process without access to it seems rather harmful to the spec in its early stages. I would like to see the whole "Shadow Bolt" morph to the spec filler happen at level 10 for both Affliction and Destruction specs, much in the way all warrior specs are given their spec defined rage generator ability (Shield Bash and the like).

Another thing that is odd is this new spell Malady, as it has no adjoining tooltips specifying that it is used by a specific spec or that it might be replaced by a different spell once you choose your specification, and all in all gives no benefit to any of the specs other than a dot that deals moderate damage for a 2 sec cast time. Affliction already has enough dots to juggle with Haunt (that is unless this spell is supposed to be replacing haunt as its not in the talent list), Unstable Affliction, Corruption, and Bane of Agony; to throw in another hard cast dot like this to our rotation seems a little cruel.

I also see that Destruction seems to have misplaced their Bane of Havoc spell and pretty much any dot aside from Immolate. Not sure if this is an intended change, but I can't say I know the current Destruction spec playstyle all that much to tell if this is bad or not.

While I do like the major change to Dark Intent in that its now a raid wide buff instead of us giving preferential treatment to Shadow Priests/Balance Druids on a single target buff effect. The Dark Intent changes will be beneficial to healers and casters alike. I would say though, make it so it behaves more like MotW, BoK, BoM, PW:F, PW:S and similar effects where you can target yourself or another party member and make the effect happen so we can still make use of it while soloing (though i wouldn't care if you kept the restriction of self/party/raid so you can't go around corrupting peoples intentions in a fly-by buffing). I am also concerned and want to know if it is going to interact with Arcane Brilliance much in the way that MotW and BoK will overwrite one another as both provide roughly the same effect (which would hamper the effectiveness of this wonderful change).

On a brighter note, I am digging the extra Soulburn effects you have in store (makes the loss of Jinx not quite as bad for PVP since now we can Soulburn Curse of Exhaustion for AOE slows) and that Fel Armor is now a passive skill (one less buff to worry about in PVP, yay).


Miscellaneous Notes
On a side note to the above, thank you for making Crusader Aura a passive for paladins. Though do us a favor, put Blessing of Might back where it is currently instead of making it learned at level 81.

Similarly for classes that can utalize spirit to hit conversions (priests, balance druids, and elemental shamans) should get the spirit to hit conversion talent earlier than they all do in the new MOP sets (full effect of this passive bonus can be accessed at about level 21 with current talent sets, 23 for Elemental Shamans since theirs is a 3 point talent). On the MoP talent sets, balance druids get it at level 64, equivalent talent is missing in shadow priest set. Shamans get the talent for the spirit to hit conversion nice and early at level 10 (which sounds perfect for the other two specs that require this change due to recent itemization practices by you guys).
91 Blood Elf Priest
8810
I was looking on the changes you guys doing on the classes, about hunters, I found that we gona face the same problem we have during cataclysm. Since their gear scaling is quite low their dps gona start extremely OP and in the end they gona be hitting like chickens, any consideration about this?
85 Dwarf Shaman
3610
asendence for enhance is kinda meh
90 Human Death Knight
9450
Is it just me, and I realize this is a work in progress, but nearly all of the talents are PVP oriented. This leads me to think the direction of the game is going more PVP. Which is the direction that I dislike the most.

It may just be the wording on the talents but as it stands in my opinion are for PVP and have little or no application to PVE.

Take the druid for example have to cast a wrath or other dps spell to get a buff to my next healing spell. If I choose to heal and go restore I want things that help me heal not help me dps.
02/20/2012 07:00 AMPosted by Thalia
I was looking on the changes you guys doing on the classes, about hunters, I found that we gona face the same problem we have during cataclysm. Since their gear scaling is quite low their dps gona start extremely OP and in the end they gona be hitting like chickens, any consideration about this?


thier consideration is thatt hey will 'fix it' when its gotten out of hand, after the content is on farm and its to late in the pvp season for it to help
Is it just me, and I realize this is a work in progress, but nearly all of the talents are PVP oriented. This leads me to think the direction of the game is going more PVP. Which is the direction that I dislike the most.

It may just be the wording on the talents but as it stands in my opinion are for PVP and have little or no application to PVE.

Take the druid for example have to cast a wrath or other dps spell to get a buff to my next healing spell. If I choose to heal and go restore I want things that help me heal not help me dps.


consider this, with this change, it will help them balance pvp more easily, and many of the choices can have benefits in pve if you are clever enough to think of a way to do so
85 Tauren Druid
7700
Another thing that is odd is this new spell Malady, as it has no adjoining tooltips specifying that it is used by a specific spec or that it might be replaced by a different spell once you choose your specification, and all in all gives no benefit to any of the specs other than a dot that deals moderate damage for a 2 sec cast time. Affliction already has enough dots to juggle with Haunt (that is unless this spell is supposed to be replacing haunt as its not in the talent list), Unstable Affliction, Corruption, and Bane of Agony; to throw in another hard cast dot like this to our rotation seems a little cruel.


Malady eventually gets replaced for each spec. Demo and Aff use Corruption while I think Destro uses its Immo.

While I do like the major change to Dark Intent in that its now a raid wide buff instead of us giving preferential treatment to Shadow Priests/Balance Druids on a single target buff effect. The Dark Intent changes will be beneficial to healers and casters alike. I would say though, make it so it behaves more like MotW, BoK, BoM, PW:F, PW:S and similar effects where you can target yourself or another party member and make the effect happen so we can still make use of it while soloing (though i wouldn't care if you kept the restriction of self/party/raid so you can't go around corrupting peoples intentions in a fly-by buffing). I am also concerned and want to know if it is going to interact with Arcane Brilliance much in the way that MotW and BoK will overwrite one another as both provide roughly the same effect (which would hamper the effectiveness of this wonderful change).


I am pretty sure it can be cast on yourself. It will also probably overwrite rather than stack with Arc Brill as they are both 10% SP buffs. This does not detract from its usefulness really as locks will still use it when soloing and when there is no mage in the group.
85 Tauren Druid
7700
I was looking on the changes you guys doing on the classes, about hunters, I found that we gona face the same problem we have during cataclysm. Since their gear scaling is quite low their dps gona start extremely OP and in the end they gona be hitting like chickens, any consideration about this?


What specifically leads you to this conclusion?
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
FBI
13975
It hit me a little while ago, wouldn't it make more sense to have Death Siphon (and perhaps Soul Reaper as well) deal Shadowfrost damage? Perhaps a glyph to do so? That way Frost DKs might consider taking Death Siphon because it'll be affected by their Mastery, rather than just leaving it best at the hands of Unholy- especially now that Frost Presence doesn't increase damage dealt, there's really no motivation to grab an ability that is less effective than Death Strike.
Actually, if Soul Reaper used Shadowfrost damage too, it'd give it a bit more of an epic feel to cast...
13 Tauren Paladin
60
Question: Why did attacks using % weapon damage drop so much?

Answer: We are in the process of recalculating the way damage is dealt. Individual weapon damage is going up by the same proportion in order to keep DPS at level 85 about the same. This should ensure that, at lower levels, these abilities aren’t overpowered.


Not sure if you've clarified this already but I saw that Feral's Shred and Ravage damage got nerfed in the update. When I look at abilities like Warrior's Heroic Strike, it says 100% weapon damage but Feral's Ravage and Shred just gives a percentage of damage.

So my question is, did Feral's Ravage and Shred damage get nerfed or are you guys recalculating their damage too. I understand that warrior's actually hit with their weapons and ferals use their claws instead, but just for clarification, what's going on with feral damage?
85 Night Elf Rogue
7020

First a question:

Is the unlimited re-direct talent at level 90 meant to be the change that was previously talked about "to make Bandit's Guile less punishing"? BG as it stands is still unchanged, and it still appears to be a mechanic that unnecessarily punishes target swapping when combo points (and to some extent poisons) already do this. Why not make Bandit's Guile less punishing as a baseline idea and leave re-direct alone? At the moment the talent feels like a band aid to "fix" a problem being created by a poorly designed ability.


In general:

I've posted before that I was rather underwhelmed by the new talents proposed for MoP, and I felt there was a lack of interesting and enticing ideas. As a PvE rogue I have to say I still feel this way.

The changes break down into two categories for me.

1) Quality of life changes that fix utilities that were previously un-usable and/or fix basic raid needs such as target swapping.

2) The few truly new ideas are centered around PvP.


First the positive:

What I think is GOOD are the quality of life changes. I don’t want to belittle these because some of them were a long time in coming and I’m EXTREMELY happy to see them.

The fix to utility poisons and the adjustment to Shiv are excellent. Rogues can now actually make use of our utility poisons in raids without it being the “poor mans” option. This is very gratifying. Changes to poison stacking are over all great.

The level 90 talents are interesting. I like how they make you think about which encounters each would be useful on. I can imagine grabbing the unlimited Re-directs for something like the Valritha Dreamwalker fight, while taking the ranged ability for Atramedes.

Question: Can someone please explain in greater detail how Anticipation will work? Because at the moment it is looking like it will be an automatic dps increase and I’m concerned that it will simply become the default PvE option because of this. (which would be tragic).


I’m happy to see Expose Armor being worked on. The ability has been in the kit since classic but never really used in PvE due to other classes having the “better” (read: less punishing) versions of it. I’m going to refrain from commenting on whether I think this is the RIGHT change, since I would have to try it out in a raid setting to really comment, but for now it’s enough to see that it’s on your radar.

Swiftblade’s Cunning is fantastic. Having all rogue spec’s bring the same buff is over all great, because frankly in my experience most non-rogues couldn’t have told you what buffs we brought to raids. They were extremely redundant with other classes and the fact that it was different for all three specs was for some reason confusing to most other players. This buff feels appropriate to the class, requires a small amount of good game play to keep up, and is important enough (without being too unique) that the fact that we bring it will not be 100% overlooked.

I believe I’m in the minority but I can see Burst of Speed being interesting and having a place in select PvE encounters. I worry that it will be a double edged sword though. It’s one thing to be extremely good at Deluge duty on Rag... it’s quite another to be so much better than everyone else that the only thing you ever do on Rag is Deluge. Still, that is a minor concern, and there are not a lot of other situations where I can imagine it being a problem as opposed to a bonus.

The new elusiveness is extremely interesting, but I need to know if the lack of a CD on Feint is accurate and if the glyph of feint will be removed or changed. Those things all fit together and it’s impossible to really comment until we know if using Feint is going to cost us damage or not. (not a good option) Until then all I can say is “looks promising”, and that talent tier looks fairly solid to me.

Removing the damage component from Shadow Step was great. It was just too frustrating to have damage tied to the ability, particularly on encounters where the ability could not be used.









The Critical:

Over all, I’m not feeling the inspiration or excitement still.

The two new abilities are both PvP oriented in the extreme, and while that was ok for one expansion it's disappointing to see it two expacs in a row. In cata we got Smoke Bomb and Combat Readiness. I’m really not sure how I’m supposed to make use of Shadow Walk and Shroud in a raiding environment, except for cheesy and unintended exploits where I sneak my raid past trash. Smoke Bomb was the same way. It saw some use in raids but most of it was unintended exploits that were quickly hot fixed or did not make much of a difference.

The other changes are largely still quality of life changes that are fixing long issues like utility poisons and target swapping. I’m really yearning for just one new ability that makes me think...”Wow, that is going to so much fun to use in raids/pve”, as opposed to what I’m thinking now...”Wow, I’m so glad they are finally addressing that issue.”


For two of the three spec’s Vanish is still a DPS cool down. Do you really intend to railroad both Assassination and Sub into always taking Prep? That isn’t an interesting choice. It’s damage vs movement, and except in the most extreme movement encounters the damage ability will always win. Having to choose between utility and damage is something we want to get rid of. I would really rather that Prep just disappear completely rather than have this non-choice.


Tricks of the Trade: With the change in threat it’s become largely useless as a utility. When you need a misdirect at the pull, or when an add spawns Hunters are still superior. (though Shuriken Toss MIGHT change this) Mostly it’s a dps bonus to one other person in your raid, and when you are trading with another rogue it’s usually fine. However the amount of angst and the irritable complaints I get from non-rogue players who want the tricks at “exactly the right time”, do not care that it’s often tied to my set bonus (and can be a damage loss for me if I hold it), complain non-stop that for x/y/z reasons they should be getting it, creates a situation where the ability is nothing other than a 30 second Pain In My Behind. I do not want to be actively responsible for one other persons damage. A passive buff that I cast on one person before the pull is different. A raid buff that I need to maintain at 100% uptime is also interesting. Having a Shadow Priest QQ at me on farm content that I didn’t hit him in time for the big aoe, when I was using it on CD, and HE IS TRYING TO RANK is nothing short of idiotic. I might be in the minority on this, but I would honestly prefer to see Tricks of the Trade removed completely. Or at the very least have the dps component stripped from it. The idea of buffing one single person’s dps is entirely too altruistic for the class concept anyway.

Sub spec positional requirements are still too harsh. I think that leaving Backstab as it is and forcing us to use Hemo when out of position is fine (Feral druids manage to make it work, sub rogues can as well). However I would love to see you guys find a way to make Shadow Dance and Find Weakness available in a PvE encounter where Sub is forced to stay in front of the boss. Losing our largest DPS CD and related buff as well as having to switch to a sub-optimal main attack is too much. At the very least let a failed Cheap Shot still trigger Find Weakness on bosses.
02/20/2012 09:20 AMPosted by Koaleaf
I was looking on the changes you guys doing on the classes, about hunters, I found that we gona face the same problem we have during cataclysm. Since their gear scaling is quite low their dps gona start extremely OP and in the end they gona be hitting like chickens, any consideration about this?


What specifically leads you to this conclusion?


history, the obviouse ignorance of the class placed by the devs respawnses to hunter relited items, and the fact that AotH and HM have exponentially high RaP values and abilities like chimera shot, aimed shot, having high base values on their damage scaling
85 Tauren Druid
7700
02/20/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Severrin
Question: Can someone please explain in greater detail how Anticipation will work? Because at the moment it is looking like it will be an automatic dps increase and I’m concerned that it will simply become the default PvE option because of this. (which would be tragic).


Anticipation is essentially adding a 5 combo point well onto your character that when you reach 5 cp on the target all overflow cp's are redirected to the rogue. Finishers then consume the cp on the target and consumes the anticipation on the rogue to put cps back onto the target.

I view it as an odd 'noob helper' in that it helps people who do not spend their cps fast enough but also a 'burst' talent as you can put down two 5 cp finishers in a row if you build Anticipation to max, but the caveat being that in storing up those cps you have to delay your first finisher to build up Anticipation and then pool energy just to put out the two finishers in a row. It can also be helpful for times when you have to wait to use a finisher but still want to do damage with cp builders. The normally wasted cps are stored for after you used the finisher you were waiting to use.
85 Night Elf Rogue
7020
02/20/2012 12:28 PMPosted by Koaleaf
Question: Can someone please explain in greater detail how Anticipation will work? Because at the moment it is looking like it will be an automatic dps increase and I’m concerned that it will simply become the default PvE option because of this. (which would be tragic).


Anticipation is essentially adding a 5 combo point well onto your character that when you reach 5 cp on the target all overflow cp's are redirected to the rogue. Finishers then consume the cp on the target and consumes the anticipation on the rogue to put cps back onto the target.

I view it as an odd 'noob helper' in that it helps people who do not spend their cps fast enough but also a 'burst' talent as you can put down two 5 cp finishers in a row if you build Anticipation to max, but the caveat being that in storing up those cps you have to delay your first finisher to build up Anticipation and then pool energy just to put out the two finishers in a row. It can also be helpful for times when you have to wait to use a finisher but still want to do damage with cp builders. The normally wasted cps are stored for after you used the finisher you were waiting to use.



I understand the well concept for anticipation.

What is up in the air, is if you are at 4 cp's and you SS, will a glyph proc then add a combo point to the well? If you are at 3 cp's and you Mutilate will a Seal Fate proc add a point to the well? How does it interact with HAT if at all? All of this has damage implications that could make the talent mandatory and not a choice. When comparing it to the other two abilities that becomes a problem. If the level 90 abilities are such where all PvE rogues will take the same talent for 90% of encounters then I view that as an issue.


The fact that it is a burst ability did not escape me, and is in fact what makes it valuable. It gives back to rogues the ability to wait and do damage WHEN we need to, as opposed to the frantic spam to keep up with the energy bar (which is what high end Combat has become). However if it is a DPS increase, it then competes with the redirect talent in unpleasant ways. Especially if Bandit's Guile remains unchanged.


I very much doubt that a level 90 ability is meant as a "noob helper" especially for something as basic and core to the class as the 5 cp system. The only time I've ever heard of level capped players speeding past 5 cps is when energy capping is an issue and they are spamming and trying to keep up while distracted by something else. That can be fixed by fixing the energy regeneration issues of the class, and does not require a level 90 talent.
85 Tauren Druid
7700
What is up in the air, is if you are at 4 cp's and you SS, will a glyph proc then add a combo point to the well? If you are at 3 cp's and you Mutilate will a Seal Fate proc add a point to the well? How does it interact with HAT if at all? All of this has damage implications that could make the talent mandatory and not a choice. When comparing it to the other two abilities that becomes a problem. If the level 90 abilities are such where all PvE rogues will take the same talent for 90% of encounters then I view that as an issue.


I believe that glyph/talent procs may add an anticipation charge as they are based off of abilities used. HaT may not, but any abilities used over the 5 HaT-able cps will probably add a charge. It is probably an event aura added onto the cp builder abilities so when the abilities happen it calculates the cps (based on procs) then adds cps to the target with anything over five going to the Anticipation well.

The fact that it is a burst ability did not escape me, and is in fact what makes it valuable. It gives back to rogues the ability to wait and do damage WHEN we need to, as opposed to the frantic spam to keep up with the energy bar (which is what high end Combat has become). However if it is a DPS increase, it then competes with the redirect talent in unpleasant ways. Especially if Bandit's Guile remains unchanged.


This is something that really just needs to be tested a lot. Flexibility gives the rogue shorter buildup between enemies or allows for the unloading of a 5cp finisher on something other than their main target. I wonder about Sub using Flexibility to spread ruptures all around. With HaT and Serrated Blades it could be possible for Subs to use Rupture on multiple enemies and Evis them individually to simply refresh.
Edited by Koaleaf on 2/20/2012 1:19 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
16730
I have 3 questions about the priest tree I was hoping to get clarified

Divine Star - It doesn't list damage type. The name sounds holy, but I thought shadow priests might get a shadow version, letting them apply +shadow damage bonuses. If not, and it does holy damage regardless of spec, would it count as a holy spell and remove shadowform?

Archangel - This talent refers to consuming stacks of evangelism, but it makes no mention of how a priest gains these stacks. Am I correct in assuming that they are gained in the same way a priest with the current evangelism talent gets them? If so, do these stacks also give a bonus to DoT damage (like the current evangelism stacks do) so that consuming them is a tradeoff for burst damage? If so, does taking the archangel telent only provide you with the mechanic for consuming the stacks, or is it also needed to get the stacks (ie, does a priest without Archangel get evangelism stacks for the DoT damage, while being unable to proc archangel).

Final Prayer - Should the talent read "anytime a damaging attack would bring you below 30% health"? If not, it's unclear how the talent would work in some situations.

Thanks!
85 Night Elf Rogue
7020
Are you basing this off of actual information? Or are you guessing? The description isn't clear and the point I was making is it's difficult to give feedback on the talent because of that. It's also an important clarification that I would like to see them (Blizzard) make so that we can clearly assess the talent.

However I have given a form of either or feedback as it is. If pure proc's add to the well (such as in the example I gave) then there is a problem. If Hat adds to it then it actually is probably fine, since all that allows you to do is wait at 5 cps without a dps loss (a good thing). If Hat does not trigger it the the ability becomes a DPS loss for Sub (not a good thing). What is important is that this ability cannot be much of a raid dps increase, because if it is it shoves everyone into taking it, even when there might be a good use for the other two talents. That is something that I believe they are trying to avoid based on their stated goals.
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