February 15 Update to Mists Talent Calculator

90 Gnome Warlock
11655
Question: How does Destruction’s Ember system work?

Answer: Basically, you build embers with some spells, and then spend those embers with Soul Fire, Ember Tap, or Fire and Brimstone.

Internally, this is how it works:

Immolate – DD + DoT on the target
Incinerate – generates 1/10th ember, or 2/10ths if it crits an immolated target.
Fel Flame – generates 1/10th ember, or 2/10ths if it crits an immolated target.
Conflagrate – triggers Backdraft and has a 12 second cooldown.

Soul Fire – consumes one ember instead of mana.
Fire and Brimstone – costs 1 ember and has no cooldown.
Ember Tap – costs 1 embers.

Each full ember costs 0.33% of your maximum health per second. If you stay below 1 ember, you take no damage.


1) What will the UI element for Burning Embers be? I feel like 1/10th of one Ember doesn't lend itself well to being displayed via buff icons. I think something like a combo point indicator on the warlock's player frame (but with some fiery icon instead of a dot or a soulshard icon) would work well.
2) On a related note (and more importantly), how many total Embers can you accrue? This of course affects the UI issue as well.
3) It seems like Shadowburn is going to more closely resemble a Shadow Word: Death now, but the damage dealt to the lock will be over time after the 10 Embers are gained. How easy will it be to dump these 10 Embers? Edit: Are the Unstable Embers actually different from the Burning Embers or is that just an iteration on the name for the mechanic? If I can't get rid of them quickly, it seems like Shadowburn might be too costly to use with 3.33% health draining off every second. Or will we have to save Ember Tap for that very reason?
4) Do you think that the health drain game will make the level 60 talents too risky to use for Destruction compared to the other specs? If not, maybe an example of how that gameplay might work would assuage my fears (pun intended).

Sounds like an interesting dynamic to the class. I love playing a lock and I also like playing a rogue, so combining the casting with a resource-driven system really appeals to me. Can't wait to test it out!
Edited by Dalmasca on 2/22/2012 1:33 PM PST
85 Troll Warlock
9550
Question: How does Destruction’s Ember system work?

Answer: Basically, you build embers with some spells, and then spend those embers with Soul Fire, Ember Tap, or Fire and Brimstone.

Internally, this is how it works:

Immolate – DD + DoT on the target
Incinerate – generates 1/10th ember, or 2/10ths if it crits an immolated target.
Fel Flame – generates 1/10th ember, or 2/10ths if it crits an immolated target.
Conflagrate – triggers Backdraft and has a 12 second cooldown.

Soul Fire – consumes one ember instead of mana.
Fire and Brimstone – costs 1 ember and has no cooldown.
Ember Tap – costs 1 embers.

Each full ember costs 0.33% of your maximum health per second. If you stay below 1 ember, you take no damage.


1) What will the UI element for Burning Embers be? I feel like 1/10th of one Ember doesn't lend itself well to being displayed via buff icons. I think something like a combo point indicator on the warlock's player frame (but with some fiery icon instead of a dot or a soulshard icon) would work well.
2) On a related note (and more importantly), how many total Embers can you accrue? This of course affects the UI issue as well.
3) It seems like Shadowburn is going to more closely resemble a Shadow Word: Death now, but the damage dealt to the lock will be over time after the 10 Embers are gained. How easy will it be to dump these 10 Embers? If I can't get rid of them quickly, it seems like Shadowburn might be too costly to use with 3.33% health draining off every second. Or will we have to save Ember Tap for that very reason?
4) Do you think that the health drain game will make the level 60 talents too risky to use for Destruction compared to the other specs? If not, maybe an example of how that gameplay might work would assuage my fears (pun intended).

Sounds like an interesting dynamic to the class. I love playing a lock and I also like playing a rogue, so combining the casting with a resource-driven system really appeals to me. Can't wait to test it out!


id bet money they really meant that shadowburn would give you 10/10th's of an ember, equaling one ember, not 10.
90 Gnome Warlock
7085
"one tenth of an ember" is a stupid name. Call the 1/10th units "embers" and the 10/10 units "flares" or "sparks" or something else.
90 Gnome Warlock
11655
02/22/2012 12:19 AMPosted by Nevarmoar
and heres something else. in the instance he showed, youd do 2 back to back soulfires and basically have regened your mana by the time its done. BUT, soulfire is a long cast time and its doubled if the target is above 25% life, wouldnt it be counter intuitive to do soulfires back to back? wouldnt u rather wait for your pet to lower the cast time via the destro ability? is there some part of the ember that makes the cast time more forgiving? whats up? lol


I imagine at least one of the Soul Fires would be instant via Destructive Influence, but I agree that the penalty for hitting the target above 25% life doesn't really make sense.

Example:
Soul Fire #1 is cast instantly, crits, and consumes Embers; meanwhile, doubling the cast time of the next Soul Fire within 30 sec.

Where is the incentive to cast the next Soul Fire? Also, is there a limit on how many Embers are consumed (similar to the Holy Power changes) or is it all of them on each SF cast? Even more precisely, will the spells consume partially built-up Embers. I could even foresee a system where whole Embers give inflection points to how much the mastery boosts the spell, but every partial Ember helps too.

More importantly, this system might also hit a wall as the warlock's haste and crit goes up. If you can generate Embers fast enough to have another Soul Fire ready before the 30 seconds is up, you essentially have to sit there burning your health before you can get the cast off in a reasonable amount of time. We're talking about a spell with a 4 second base casting time here. Even with 30% haste, that cast time goes down to 3 seconds, which would then be a 6 second cast when doubled. I almost guarantee that a doubled cast time would drop it below some other spell in DPSC priority, thus penalizing the lock for having the second Ember charged up.

So, as we're casting more spells and more of them crit, we'd have a harder time getting rid of Embers... which seems counter-intuitive to the system outlined. I see that Ember Tap could and likely will be used in the interim to consume Embers. That may work well, since it scales with mastery too, but I wonder how intuitive that will be.
Edited by Dalmasca on 2/22/2012 1:37 PM PST
85 Troll Warlock
9550
02/22/2012 12:47 AMPosted by Dalmasca
and heres something else. in the instance he showed, youd do 2 back to back soulfires and basically have regened your mana by the time its done. BUT, soulfire is a long cast time and its doubled if the target is above 25% life, wouldnt it be counter intuitive to do soulfires back to back? wouldnt u rather wait for your pet to lower the cast time via the destro ability? is there some part of the ember that makes the cast time more forgiving? whats up? lol


I imagine at least one of the Soul Fires would be instant via Destructive Influence, but I agree that the penalty for hitting the target above 25% life doesn't really make sense.

Example:
Soul Fire #1 is cast instantly, crits, and consumes Embers; meanwhile, doubling the cast time of the next Soul Fire within 30 sec.

Where is the incentive to cast the next Soul Fire? Also, is there a limit on how many Embers are consumed (similar to the Holy Power changes) or is it all of them on each SF cast? Even more precisely, will the spells consume partially built-up Embers. I could even foresee a system where whole Embers give inflection points to the mastery scaling, but every bit of Ember helps a little.

More importantly, this system might also hit a wall as the warlock's haste and crit goes up. If you can generate Embers fast enough to have another Soul Fire ready before the 30 seconds is up, you essentially have to sit there burning your health before you can get the cast off in a reasonable amount of time. We're talking about a spell with a 4 second base casting time here. Even with 30% haste, that cast time goes down to 3 seconds, which would then be a 6 second cast when doubled. I almost guarantee that a doubled cast time would drop it below some other spell in DPSC priority, thus penalizing the lock for having the second Ember charged up.

So, as we're casting more spells and more of them crit, we'd have a harder time getting rid of Embers... which seems counter-intuitive to the system outlined. I hope that Conflagrate will consume them in a later beta build, because I think that would solve the issue nicely.


perhaps if the soulfire was burning an ember it should not incur the doubled cast time drawback. still leaves the question how do you judge how many embers are being consumed on a single spell, or are you forced to only use a single ember per cast?
90 Gnome Warlock
11655
02/22/2012 12:29 AMPosted by Nevarmoar
id bet money they really meant that shadowburn would give you 10/10th's of an ember, equaling one ember, not 10.


Very possible. I hope you're right.

02/22/2012 12:42 AMPosted by Maleficia
"one tenth of an ember" is a stupid name. Call the 1/10th units "embers" and the 10/10 units "flares" or "sparks" or something else.


I agree, it's a bit odd, but it all depends on how they choose to display the Ember gains. Even a third resource bar with graduated marks for each Ember would work and make it relatively easy to see the gains.

Something like this, perhaps:

Full Embers
...........V...........V..........V..........V..........V...........V...........V.........V...........V..........V
=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|
^^^^^...^^^^...^^^^...^^^^...^^^^....^^^^...^^^^...^^^^...^^^^...^^^^
Partial Embers

Ideally, you'd see some kind of highlight at the marks that denote whole Embers too.
90 Gnome Warlock
7085
Full Embers
...........V...........V..........V..........V..........V...........V...........V.........V...........V..........V
=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|=====|
^^^^^...^^^^...^^^^...^^^^...^^^^....^^^^...^^^^...^^^^...^^^^...^^^^
Partial Embers

Ideally, you'd see some kind of highlight at the marks that denote whole Embers too.


That could work.

I share the concern about attempting to use Soul Fire twice. Even if the cast-time doubling effect didn't exist, casting a spell with such a long cast time back-to-back would be completely impractical in PvP. I guess you can always burn off extra Embers with heals or AoE...but what if you don't need either?

Save up Embers? That's a problem that just keeps compounding unless a sudden need for AoE or healing arises.

There should be an ability that consumes all available Embers at once. Why not bring Chaos Bolt back as an ability that does just that? Make it a long cooldown super-Soul-Fire or something.

You could argue that in most PvP scenarios you'd always have a need for either Ember Tap, Fire and Brimstone or Soul Fire at any given time and that accruing lots of Embers just won't happen. I suppose we'll have to see whether or not that will be the case.

Either way, I'm frankly astounded at how much effort Destruction is getting poured into it in MoP after the debacle that was Cataclysm. I hope I'm still playing by the time MoP goes live. This version of Destruction sounds fascinating.
85 Troll Warlock
9550
the cast time does seem rather troubling. considering old backdraft didnt even affect it, it will be a mystery what ends up happening lol
90 Orc Shaman
17975
Need information on what 'Lava Beam' is from the Elemental Ascendance!!!

/target Kaivax
/cast Banana
Edited by Shujenka on 2/22/2012 2:34 AM PST
85 Troll Warlock
11205
lol so what shamans will hawe heroism and bloodlust wich hawe same effect and dont share cd...cool
Plz dont take out Ascendance i totaly wanna be some watter bubble or elemental or whatewer
90 Undead Priest
16535

Our hope is that the Destruction Warlock will attract players who are interested in a playstyle that rewards spending resources at the right time, rather than constantly casting.

I don't understand this phrasing. Are you trying to claim that not attacking will somehow produce higher DPS than attacking? First of all, this doesn't seem logically possible unless their attacks heal the target if cast at the "wrong" time. Wouldn't it be more correct to say that it becomes more important to cast the right spell at the right time? Second of all, I don't believe that you'd design a class where standing around doing nothing was part of the design. You even gave healers the cheap/slow/weak heal so that they could spam cast and not feel like they were standing around with their thumbs up their butts. Which means destro locks are still going to have, and cast, filler spells, and still be filling all of their GCDs to maximize their DPS. I'm assuming you actually mean they just won't be able to fall back onto one specific filler at any given time and blindly hit that, they'll have to pay attention to their current resources and cast the right "important nuke" or "filler nuke" as their resources/buffs/whatever dictate.

Edit: Just read some other posts about auto wand and destro basically being turned into a hunter. Ugh, glad I don't play a warlock.
Edited by Nerodius on 2/22/2012 5:27 AM PST
90 Orc Warrior
9950

all primary dps abilities will be in the classes specalizations, the talents provide flavor and benefits outside of dps, for example, T1 gives you mobility, T2 gives you survivability that you can chose from an on use ability with a low effect with low CD, a passive benefit, or an on use ability with large benefit (likely for burn phases) on a longer CD

T3 provides aoe utility for adds, with the option of being a snare, a root, or an interupt (which will likely be useable to interupt the bosses 'death cast')

T4 has dps options as each ability does damage, shockwave is low damage on low CD, with some utility, avitar is decent CD with a X% damage boost, and some utility, and blade storm is a good AoE damage boost with mobility utility

T5 provides great raid utility, for example, you notice your tank is dangerously low in hp, you chose enraged regeneration (T2) and vigelance (T5), you can now sheild wall, enraged regen, and then vigelance your tank, and give your healers a little breathring rooim to heal him back up, whilke you are taking reduced damage because you are healing yourself and taking less damage because of sheild wall, while only taking 30% of your tanks damage (which means you will be easy to heal up through raid heal hots)

T6 is a dps boost

warrior talents are not bad, just rememebr that your damage 'talents' are now in your specalizations and baseline in the abilitys that are specific for that specalization


Let me see... T1 - we have it on Cataclism - so nothing change to MoP
T2- Survibility We need choose between 3 skill what we have now.. Good change!!
T3 - AoE roots - with dismish return on pvp? and we have Hamstring. 10 yrds silence, why? we have pummel with gag order what improve heroic throw too
T4 - Avatar: We lose death wish so.. we just got imune imparing efects because the improve damage we have it
T5 - Vigilance - just for tank... transfer 30% of damage
Mass reflection - warrior arms or fury with shield hit so soft and the cd is so huge to little efect.
Safeguard - Tanks dont use this today on cataclysm why we will want this on MoP?
T6 - ok

Warrior never had a CC, or something to help him on other stance if he change.. like if he change to defensive a some effect from arms still work or gain something usefull. I dont asking for more damage to warrior, just make the play skill more chalenger or just more fun.

90 Blood Elf Paladin
12155
Paladin Tier 15 (Gap Closing)

I was extremely disappointed when I saw Paladins weren't getting an instant gap closer, So my question is; with the abundance of snares, pulls, knock backs, and gap openers, how exactly is a ret paladin going to close a gap on an enemy player?

Is the plan to make ret paladins choose between team utility for personal mobility?

Does PoJ scale with Boundless Conviction?
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5780
I believe that fire mage mastery was overlooked in regards to scorch. Arcane and frost both gain mastery bonuses to scorch, while fire does not. Also holy pally leveling with auto attack, nuking with holy shock and most likely extremely weak judgements? Healer dps shouldn't be amazing, but for holy pallies it is pretty much nonexistant from the look of things. Another thing that might come up is the CD removal of invocation for mages with the Invocation talent if the current glyph remains unchanged. Spamable self healing to that degree on a dps class would just end up getting nerfed, so might as well address it early instead of having people feeling hurt over losing a ridiculously OP toy down the road.
90 Worgen Warlock
11035

Our hope is that the Destruction Warlock will attract players who are interested in a playstyle that rewards spending resources at the right time, rather than constantly casting.

I don't understand this phrasing. Are you trying to claim that not attacking will somehow produce higher DPS than attacking? First of all, this doesn't seem logically possible unless their attacks heal the target if cast at the "wrong" time. Wouldn't it be more correct to say that it becomes more important to cast the right spell at the right time? Second of all, I don't believe that you'd design a class where standing around doing nothing was part of the design. You even gave healers the cheap/slow/weak heal so that they could spam cast and not feel like they were standing around with their thumbs up their butts. Which means destro locks are still going to have, and cast, filler spells, and still be filling all of their GCDs to maximize their DPS. I'm assuming you actually mean they just won't be able to fall back onto one specific filler at any given time and blindly hit that, they'll have to pay attention to their current resources and cast the right "important nuke" or "filler nuke" as their resources/buffs/whatever dictate.

Edit: Just read some other posts about auto wand and destro basically being turned into a hunter. Ugh, glad I don't play a warlock.


The energy specs (rogue and feral) already spend a significant amount of time doing nothing but waiting while they pool resources. Feral literally spends almost half of a boss fight waiting to push a button. You can see this on the fight breakdowns at Simcraft. Unfortunately there is a precedent for thumb-twiddling in multiple rotations.

This is, in my very humble opinion of course, a design failure and something the devs should be moving away from rather than moving toward.

I'm hoping, and guessing, that it was meant more as trying to cast the right thing after taking your resources into consideration like you said rather than waiting for, say mana, to regen to a particular amount. I don't see how empty GCDs can be beneficial to a caster in any way.

I'm still looking forward to trying it, and if it doesn't work out we still have Aff and Demo to fall back on....but between one of them likely being the worst burst spec in the game again and the other one possibly melee-oriented, those are two flawed specs in their own right.
Edited by Shadowfurrie on 2/22/2012 7:33 AM PST
85 Tauren Priest
6700
One odd thing that I noticed when looking at Destruction skills was this:

Auto Wand
1 sec cast

Automatically attack the target with an equiped wand until cancelled.

What is the purpose of this skill and why other wand users don't have it yet?
90 Goblin Rogue
9730
How will embers work with CC in pvp? Will a warlock storing 1 ember for CC protection be cleverly using game mechanics?
90 Night Elf Hunter
0
Why do certain classes get tons of blue responses explaining every aspect of their new talent trees while others don't even get one response? It seems that has been the Blizzard attitude during Cata, they have a few favorite classes that they give lots of attention, then they just ignore the others. Why don't they just get rid of the classes they don't like anymore so they have less work to do?
90 Blood Elf Warlock
14770
One odd thing that I noticed when looking at Destruction skills was this:

Auto Wand
1 sec cast

Automatically attack the target with an equiped wand until cancelled.

What is the purpose of this skill and why other wand users don't have it yet?


Some clarification on this would be helpful. I am hoping it will be the equivalent of Auto Attack and not Auto Shot; there shouldn't be any indication that any warlock spec would suddenly be able to do wand DPS while spellcasting. If that was the case, then we would be effectively restricted to wands and hunters would be taking up torches and pitchforks.

Also, what's going on with the Soul Fire tooltip? Is the doubled cast time clause meant to be there only for Demonology specs with Decimation?
Edited by Keldion on 2/22/2012 9:00 AM PST
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]