CC, Poisons, Prep, & Step

90 Gnome Rogue
10645
With the changes to poisons and Shiv, we're gaining an on-command Root, as well as a new RNG Stun on a separate DR from Cheap Shot / Kidney Shot. Combined with the new Shuriken ranged attack and re-introduced Deadly Throw interrupt, we are gaining significant control, even at range.

What was the thought process behind the apparent tradeoff of buffing Rogues' control at the cost of what seems to be a mobility nerf in regards to the Shadowstep / Preparation tier? Was it a matter of facilitating the need to grant us new abilities - in the form of CC - that necessitated a nerf elsewhere - to our mobility?

The developers have stated they want to make each tier of talents a tough decision. However, compared to the other choices, Preparation provides more mobility via resetting Sprint, Vanish, and now Cloak, not to mention the added utility it provides. Many would argue there is an obvious winner, and this is not a very difficult decision. Regardless, it is upsetting because we will inevitably lose one of two mobility abilities which have been tried and tested (Prep, or more likely Step) while gaining something we may or may not find as useful (Snare / RNG Stun / Ranged Interrupt).

Now that we've seen Preparation and Shadowstep on the same tier in two consecutive previews, is there any reason to hope this tier is still a work in progress, or is this a somewhat finalized design, at least going into the Beta?

I realize this is a topic that Rogues have been harping on since the initial MoP preview. Please realize this is because many of us are still dissatisfied with the explanation provided thusfar. That, and the latest talent preview raised new questions. For the most I'm satisfied and eagerly anticipating the changes, but this one is bugging me.

Edits for clarity / grammar.
Edited by Tantojutsu on 2/16/2012 12:05 AM PST
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85 Orc Rogue
SCH
7580
My take on this:

The fact that Prep/SS are creating a lot of agony in the rogue community is a sign to the developers that they are on the right track. They want us to think, obsess, worry, freak out and bang our heads on the table when deciding between talents.

I suspect they will tweak the various talents until every class has a similar harsh and soul-scorching choice between two things they feel they can't live without.

The whole point is to encourage experimentation. They want you to swap talents between every arena match, between every boss fight, between every trash pull until you find the combination that clicks for you.

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85 Dwarf Rogue
0
The thing is, I don't like the fact that as a PvE Subt rogue, I'm losing a great mobility tool. Because Prep for Subt isn't a fun/mobility talent. It's a DPS cooldown. Prep is key in keeping the Find Weakness debuff up as long as possible. So grats to you for getting a choice, while for me and other PvE Subt rogues, we'll mourn the loss of a great mobility talent.
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90 Gnome Rogue
10645
My take on this:

The fact that Prep/SS are creating a lot of agony in the rogue community is a sign to the developers that they are on the right track. They want us to think, obsess, worry, freak out and bang our heads on the table when deciding between talents.

I suspect they will tweak the various talents until every class has a similar harsh and soul-scorching choice between two things they feel they can't live without.

The whole point is to encourage experimentation. They want you to swap talents between every arena match, between every boss fight, between every trash pull until you find the combination that clicks for you.

You're missing the point entirely. It's not a difficult, soul-searching choice. It's an easy and disturbing choice. It is not agonizing because the choice is difficult. It is agonizing because the choice is simple - it is obvious. It is the illusion of choice. It is a nerf to our mobility mascarading as a promise of balance. If this nerf to mobility was done in the name of balance, why then are we gaining new CC, which is essentially the flip side of the mobility coin?

Gethseme raises a good point too. Preparation provides so much more than mere mobility, in utility and even damage. Subtlety had traditionally been balanced around the fact it had superior mobility by giving it slightly less burst damage output. Why the change in philosophy?

I feel the CC and Mobility choices would fit better on a single tier rather than pitting Preparation against anything provided. Preparation simply provides more benefit than the alternatives, and dare I say even too much benefit, to make it an equal choice. If Blizzard's intention is to create difficult choices, this design is in direct contradiction to that desire.
Edited by Tantojutsu on 2/16/2012 1:45 AM PST
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90 Gnome Rogue
10645
I'd just like to add that a Blue made a great case for the existence of Preparation, along with its cousins Cold Snap and Readiness. This outlines the usefulness of Preparation, to the point of raising the class' skillcap. I will go so far as to say this makes a decent case for baseline Preparation for all Rogues. Taken from the EU forums: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3295161083#12

Abilities that reset cooldowns create potential choices for classes to refresh their cooldowns on demand so that they can be reused; the timing on using this can often result in their victory or demise. Using them for simply zerging in and blowing all cooldowns twice will often not result in the best of outcomes as this can quite often be countered by your opponent.

You have to remember that having an ability that resets cooldowns on demand such as Preparation, Cold Snap or Readiness does not make a class overpowered or provide them with a greater advantage over others. It is simply another part of their toolkit and it comes with an innate choice, "Should I use it now or save it for later?” this adds an additional skill factor to their class. Do you pop it now to increase damage output and possibly secure that kill? Should you may maybe be save it just in case you need that second defensive cooldown or crowd control in a tight spot? Maybe you should wait until everything is finally on cooldown?

Knowing when and where to use these abilities is a very difficult thing to be able to assess. These are the decisions that make or break and separate the good players from the great ones. Just because some classes can refresh their cooldowns on demand every now and then does not mean that the ability allowing them to do so is overpowered or needs to be changed in some way, it's simply another part of their class, as is the same for other abilities for anyone else.

Preparation is the superior choice because of all the options it provides. I would argue that the other choices on the current Level 60 tier are one-dimensional by comparison, and provide far less potential than Preparation. For this reason, I hope the developers consider further alterations to the Level 60 Rogue talent tier, whether that comes in the form of buffing the non-Preparation options...

Or, replace Preparation with a new choice. Then possibly make Preparation baseline, and / or rebalance the CDs of abilities it affected and / or remove it outright. I think the above quote makes a better case for baseline status rather than removal. I know these suggestions aren't necessarily ideal, but the current plan is worse, imo. It essentially wastes a talent tier by creating a mandatory "choice," something we were told would be avoided this expansion.
Edited by Tantojutsu on 2/16/2012 12:26 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
02/15/2012 10:45 PMPosted by Tantojutsu
we're gaining an on-command Root, as well as a new RNG Stun on a separate DR from Cheap Shot / Kidney Shot

When I first saw this, I was excited. Then I remembered we can't use Crippling Poison with it... :(

02/16/2012 12:18 AMPosted by Tantojutsu
and / or rebalance the CDs of abilities it affected and / or remove it outright.


I hope they do now. I'm starting to hate this ability... haha
-
It's kind of strange to me Shadowstep is still like that. I really thought they would add something extra to it.
Edited by Knocrogue on 2/16/2012 12:37 AM PST
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90 Gnome Rogue
10645
At the very least, they could reintroduce the ability to Shadowstep while rooted to make it more competitive with Preparation, but even that wouldn't be enough. Step is lovely, but Prep is a behemoth.

Preparation offers far more potential via creating greater choice, as outlined in the Blue quote above. The only benefit I can see in choosing otherwise is for someone who favors simplicity over complication.

If the choice is a higher potential skillcap vs simplistic mobility, I can only see this being a difficult decision for those who are incapable of - or indifferent to - fully utilizing Preparation's potential. How is that a difficult decision for the majority who wish to perform at maximum potential?
Edited by Tantojutsu on 2/16/2012 1:46 AM PST
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
I think the difference is that you're only looking at one facet of the game.


In BG's, where things are going super fast all the time, with tons of target switching, prep isn't the clear winner. The extra mobility every few seconds could easily override the value of a 5 minute cooldown.

In PvE, Prep isn't nearly as valuable as the others for fights that require a lot of target switching and movement.

What prep has in power, the others offer in frequency of use.

Prep is in with 2 mobility talents.

Hunters' readiness is in with Fervor and Thrill of the Hunt, which are 2 focus replenishing DPS increases. That doesn't really fit the feel for that tier.

Mages' Cold Snap is in with Cauterize and Greater Invisibility, which are 2 survival talents.

They all loosely fit into category of the talents they're competing against.

Talents of that nature offer a lot more potential than their counterparts, and are extremely powerful, but it doesn't make them the best choice for all situations.

Because of that, I don't see Blizz changing that tier.
Edited by Sheevah on 2/16/2012 3:49 AM PST
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85 Gnome Rogue
2110
Sheevah, sometimes I dislike you....
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
02/16/2012 03:42 AMPosted by Madcapmcgee
Sheevah, sometimes I dislike you....


I don't like me, either, sometimes.

Especially when it comes to something like this, because I've grown so accustomed to having step and prep.

I'm just trying to be optimistic.

If beta hits, and things are terrible, you might like me again, 'cause I'll probably be making a thread about how the world is ending. X.x
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85 Gnome Rogue
2110
Oh, great, I won't just obsessive compulsive but also bi-polar!
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
XP
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90 Orc Rogue
12810
I think the difference is that you're only looking at one facet of the game.

In BG's, where things are going super fast all the time, with tons of target switching, prep isn't the clear winner. The extra mobility every few seconds could easily override the value of a 5 minute cooldown.

In PvE, Prep isn't nearly as valuable as the others for fights that require a lot of target switching and movement.

This is why I will pick Shadow Step over Preparation 99% of the time.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8275
02/15/2012 11:14 PMPosted by Ghurka
The fact that Prep/SS are creating a lot of agony in the rogue community is a sign to the developers that they are on the right track. They want us to think, obsess, worry, freak out and bang our heads on the table when deciding between talents.


Meaningful choice is different than "Chose one either way you are still gimped"
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8275
02/16/2012 03:33 AMPosted by Sheevah
Hunters' readiness is in with Fervor and Thrill of the Hunt, which are 2 focus replenishing DPS increases. That doesn't really fit the feel for that tier.


The thing is the CDs that readiness resets are in fact mostly DPS CDs.

Sure it can reset a disengage and detterence but Getting off a double kill shot, Rapid fire, etc. can really really hurt.

And with CS the CDs it resets (Ice Block, FN and CoC) Are all great spells to cast if you need to get some distance or protect from a focused assult. In addition it heals as well.

Overall I would say that the placement of those 2 CDs is much better than the placement of prep currently.

I am still hoping they just bake a CD redux into all skills and do away with prep honestly.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
4130
My take on this:

The fact that Prep/SS are creating a lot of agony in the rogue community is a sign to the developers that they are on the right track. They want us to think, obsess, worry, freak out and bang our heads on the table when deciding between talents.

I suspect they will tweak the various talents until every class has a similar harsh and soul-scorching choice between two things they feel they can't live without.

The whole point is to encourage experimentation. They want you to swap talents between every arena match, between every boss fight, between every trash pull until you find the combination that clicks for you.


The thing is it currently is not a choice the redesigned prep is insanely good and blows sstep out of the water especially since step appears to no longer have the mini sprint after it.

But even with the mini sprint prep would still shred it two cloaks two bombs two dismantles two evasions and I'm forgetting parts.

So as it is now its not an interesting choice its just goodbye to step and mobility.
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85 Orc Rogue
SCH
7580
You're missing the point entirely. It's not a difficult, soul-searching choice. It's an easy and disturbing choice. It is not agonizing because the choice is difficult. It is agonizing because the choice is simple - it is obvious. It is the illusion of choice.
...
I feel the CC and Mobility choices would fit better on a single tier rather than pitting Preparation against anything provided. Preparation simply provides more benefit than the alternatives, and dare I say even too much benefit, to make it an equal choice. If Blizzard's intention is to create difficult choices, this design is in direct contradiction to that desire.


If the choice is so simple, then why is everyone making such a fuss about it?

To be clear: I'm not trying to justify or defend it, I'm just trying to give Blizzard's viewpoint. Using my amazing powers of mental telepathy and deep insight into human nature I can tell you that the whole wailing, ululating, sackcloth-and-ashes routine is a sign to Blizz that this is the right route to take, making rogues choose between utility and mobility.

Just complaining about it is counterproductive, because that will just entrench the designers further.

If you really really hate the prep vs. SS tradeoff, you need to do two things to get Blizz to change things up: first, you have to explain why all rogues need strong utility and mobility/cc (instead of having to choose between them), and second, give examples of utility talents that can compete with Prep.

Or, in short: these complaint threads need to be more "This is an example of an interesting choice" and less "but we want to have it all!"
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8275
02/16/2012 09:29 AMPosted by Ghurka
If the choice is so simple, then why is everyone making such a fuss about it?


BECAUSE its simple.

We dont want a simple choice

We dont want a choice that gimps us either way

We want a meaningful choice
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8275
If you really really hate the prep vs. SS tradeoff, you need to do two things to get Blizz to change things up: first, you have to explain why all rogues need strong utility and mobility/cc (instead of having to choose between them), and second, give examples of utility talents that can compete with Prep.


There are currently 2 threads (one that has been caped) in the MOP forums on this and many others have done just what you asked in these forums.
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