World of Warcraft™

Figured I would post this here as well.

Copied from my post on the MoP forums. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4063169348

After looking into the updated MoP talent calculator I was sad to see that Shield Wall and Spell Reflection still require shields.

It's safe to say that DPS Warriors are not designed to use shields, the removal of Shield Slam, Shield Bash, and in MoP Shield Block shows this. Yet In MoP, even with all the new spec specific changes, these abilities or still on specs that have to jump through hoops to use them.

The only way for a DPS warrior to use these moves is to swap to a 1 handed weapon and a shield then use the ability. The only way to do this in PvP and PvE in a timely manner is to write a Weapon Swap Macro. The macro would equip your 1 hander and shield with the first button press and on the second press would use the ability, then after the ability is done you would use another macro to switch back to your main weapon(s) or if you want to get fancy an alt command on the original macro. This is all fine and good, but Warriors are the only class that have to use macros to use their baseline defensive abilities. And with the new talent Mass Spell Reflection we have a talent that requires a macro (outside of prot).

This mechanic also has allot of hidden glitches and bugs. I'm sure there are some PvP warriors out there that have tried to reflect Pollymorph only to have Spell Reflection go of after you have turned into a sheep. This is because of the way the server reads weapon swaps as it checks to see if you have the shield equipped before it lets you do the attack. This punishes people with high lethency or have the odd lag spike.

There are also the issues of having to give up 2 bags slots for a 1 hander and shield and having to spend Conquest/Honor/Valor/Justice/Gold for gear your spec is not designed to use. But I'm not going to focus on that right now.

Some people will state that the removing of the need for these macros would be dumbing down to the warrior class. To them I say, prove it. I'm sorry but having to write a macro and press a button twice is not skill, nor does it add any depth of flavor.

Now there are a few solutions to this problem.

Remove both abilities for Arms and Fury.
I would not like this idea as it would leave DPS Warriors without a baseline damage reduction cooldown and would remove one of the more fun skills.

Remove the shield requirement for Shield Wall and Spell Reflection.
I like this one as it would solve the issue nicely. Spell Reflection currently should not require a shield as most melee weapons are bigger then most shields and it would make sense to smack that fireball back like a baseball! :D There is a small problem with Shield Wall having the word shield in the name, but honestly the current problems with it are a bigger issue to me, honestly. But this leads up the next solution.

Change the name of the moves or replace them for Arms & Fury.
I like this one as it could add some flavor to the DPS specs. I don't see why Spell Reflection should be renamed/replaces as it should not have the shield requirement any way (Baseball!). But with Shield Wall having the word shield in the name some people might have problems. Changing the name or replacing it with a similar skill would be a good way to fix this.

Some name ideas.

Die by the Sword

Fortify

Iron Will

Hold the Line

Ideas? Comments? Green Tea? Fell free to point out mistakes in grammar or spelling.

Yeah I like the thinking, they gotta do something for shield mechanics, maybe give us like another stance bar type thing, kinda like a totem bar, where we can assign our one hander and shield to a defensive ability, like shield wall shield block spell reflect, and require only one press of a button and then voila, equipped appropriate weapons and the buff is up, like how shaman can put down four totems at once instead of four globals.

Blizzard, if you're listening, i understand that it takes alot to make the game and if you dont put out a few bad ideas, no one gives input. I love your ideas and such but ^this man, knows.
If the talents are to be not based on spec, get rid of the current improved spell reflect please. Or change it to no shields ( just get rid of it because changing it is like changing so you can block with a weapon) but if the talents arent supposed to be influenced as much by a spec, i would like to point out that the 75 tier, improved spell reflect will only be picked by prot. No arms or fury has a shield. (can fury do shield 2h? either way it'd suck.) it makes it completely non... un.. in. not viable for 2 out of 3 specs. I'm not going to complain about cripple being gone or rude interruption, because you're probably making them glyphs, but i have to say that the new cc tier is boring. i liked every in the old talents. i like some things now more but cc and defense tier are boring. maybe death by the sword on the talents? that would be so much fun for arms :D and cc. we dont "need throwdown" because we did fine without it. can we have hamstring on a diff gcd? thanks for getting rid of rend. I'm sorry OP i pretty much agreed with you so i didnt have alot for you. that was all on the offchance blizz sees your post. :D sorry bout that man.

02/18/2012 08:40 AMPosted by Teenanger

Yeah I like the thinking, they gotta do something for shield mechanics, maybe give us like another stance bar type thing, kinda like a totem bar, where we can assign our one hander and shield to a defensive ability, like shield wall shield block spell reflect, and require only one press of a button and then voila, equipped appropriate weapons and the buff is up, like how shaman can put down four totems at once instead of four globals.

Sadly warriors are the ONLY class that uses the weapon swap mechanic. So they won't change anything just for us.

I was thinking we need something like IBF that's a 20% damage reduction on a 3ish minute CD. Does not need a shield.

I DONT want warriors to be dumbed down anymore. The fact that u must equip a shield to SHIELD wall and spell reflect makes sense. And is easy to do and not a problem. I love to do it.

These r not the issues ppl....

I DONT want warriors to be dumbed down anymore. The fact that u must equip a shield to SHIELD wall and spell reflect makes sense. And is easy to do and not a problem. I love to do it.

These r not the issues ppl....

Umm, can you explain how this is "dumbed down"? You even said it was easy.

And yes, with all the lag, glitches, damage reduction it IS an issue.

I have fun switching between my weapon or my shield.


But thats just me I guess.

I like the requirement of swapping to a shield too, but I do think they need to do something to eliminate the small delay that happens before we are able to use our ability. As it is now we must change to a shield, wait for the server to recognize that change, and then we can cast our ability.

There might already be something like this in the works. If you look at how some of the new druid abilities work they are auto shape shifting to the correct form without the use of a macro, which also eliminates the small shape shift delay too. Maybe warriors will be getting some similar love too.

I'm all for them removing the shield part on these spells. If you like swapping weapons for those spells nothing is holding you back from doing so even after the change.

Keep in mind most of the PVP changes happen at the release of an expansion pack in WoW. This is blizzards perfect time to improve warriors without effecting PVE.

I like the requirement of swapping to a shield too, but I do think they need to do something to eliminate the small delay that happens before we are able to use our ability. As it is now we must change to a shield, wait for the server to recognize that change, and then we can cast our ability.

There might already be something like this in the works. If you look at how some of the new druid abilities work they are auto shape shifting to the correct form without the use of a macro, which also eliminates the small shape shift delay too. Maybe warriors will be getting some similar love too.

The difference is the server has to check if a shield is equipped then let the client know it can cast the spell then the client sends it back to the server that it cast it.

The druid ones you use the move and are sent into the proper form.

I don't know of a way they can make it any smoother without removing the check for shields... but it would just be the same thing.

02/20/2012 01:03 AMPosted by Drede

I don't know of a way they can make it any smoother without removing the check for shields... but it would just be the same thing.

It is simple, don't do client side checks for shields, let the server handle that.

This is how it currently works.

The players hits a macro that equips his shield and right after the macro casts shield wall. The client sends the command to equip the shield first. Now the client sees the player has no shield equipped and gives the user an error without sending anything about shield wall to the server. The client shortly receives from the server that a shield has been equipped and the next press of the macro has the client pass the check for a shield and the command is sent to the server. This is where the delay comes from.

And this is how it would work without a client side check for shields.

Player hits shield wall without a shield already equipped. The client ignores checking for the shield and sends the command to cast shield wall to the server. The server knows the player doesn't have a shield and therefore it sends an error back to the client saying the ability requires a shield.

Now the players hits a macro that equips his shield and right after the macro casts shield wall. The client sends the command to equip the shield first. Then since the client ignores the check for the shield it sends the command for shield wall right after(possibly even the same packet). Since this game uses TCP it is guaranteed that the packets sent arrive in order. Therefore the server now knows that the user equipped a shield and cast shield wall without it having to tell the client that the shield was equipped first.

Really it is a simple change, and I can't imagine a way it could be implemented that would cause it do be difficult to change. Only actual downside is more workload for the server. I'd imagine that is why it works the way it does now.

Still though, we shouldn't need to create a macro to use a core ability. It should just equip the shield and one-hander we have specified when we hit the shield wall button. Same goes for stance dancing.

And this is how it would work without a client side check for shields.

Player hits shield wall without a shield already equipped. The client ignores checking for the shield and sends the command to cast shield wall to the server. The server knows the player doesn't have a shield and therefore it sends an error back to the client saying the ability requires a shield.

Now the players hits a macro that equips his shield and right after the macro casts shield wall. The client sends the command to equip the shield first. Then since the client ignores the check for the shield it sends the command for shield wall right after(possibly even the same packet). Since this game uses TCP it is guaranteed that the packets sent arrive in order. Therefore the server now knows that the user equipped a shield and cast shield wall without it having to tell the client that the shield was equipped first.

Sounds like it would be hard to code. It would be a nice change that's for sure. But it may do things with rogue poisons(They get 1 damage and 1 utility poison in MoP) that we we don't expect.

02/20/2012 02:57 AMPosted by Schlagy

Still though, we shouldn't need to create a macro to use a core ability. It should just equip the shield and one-hander we have specified when we hit the shield wall button. Same goes for stance dancing.

Could not agree more. But they are never going to make a UI or change weapon swapping because we are the only class that weapons swaps to use abilities. It would take to much developer time and it may not fix all the problems. And in the best case scenario it would work like there was no macro/shield requirement and at worse it will fail. All this stuff just to make it as if it did not need a shield but still does... You see my point.

02/20/2012 04:18 AMPosted by Drede

Sounds like it would be hard to code. It would be a nice change that's for sure. But it may do things with rogue poisons(They get 1 damage and 1 utility poison in MoP) that we we don't expect.

Wouldn't be hard at all, and it wouldn't effect anything but the check for shields. I'm certain the server already verifies that a player has a shield equipped as it is common practice to never trust a game client.

This means all that would be needed is to remove the check on the client for the shields. Is simple enough, and as I mentioned the only downside is increased server load because the server has to handle all "bad" attempts at using an ability that requires a shield instead of just those that pass the current client side check first.

02/20/2012 04:18 AMPosted by Drede

Could not agree more. But they are never going to make a UI or change weapon swapping because we are the only class that weapons swaps to use abilities. It would take to much developer time and it may not fix all the problems. And in the best case scenario it would work like there was no macro/shield requirement and at worse it will fail. All this stuff just to make it as if it did not need a shield but still does... You see my point.

Don't get me wrong, I would be perfectly happy if they just removed the shield requirement. But if they don't then the least they could do is allow us to use very time sensitive abilities such as spell reflect without extra delays. Even more so since we are getting a talent that promotes the use of the spell reflect.

I personally like the idea of a new UI where I can have my two-hander, one-hander, and shield all equipped at the same time. They are already modifying the UI to remove our ranged weapons, so it isn't too much of a stretch to hope they implement this.

Wouldn't be hard at all, and it wouldn't effect anything but the check for shields. I'm certain the server already verifies that a player has a shield equipped as it is common practice to never trust a game client.

This means all that would be needed is to remove the check on the client for the shields. Is simple enough, and as I mentioned the only downside is increased server load because the server has to handle all "bad" attempts at using an ability that requires a shield instead of just those that pass the current client side check first.

Good point. I wonder if they ever considered this? Would not be a surprise if they did and decided to hold it off for latter.

02/20/2012 05:00 AMPosted by Schlagy

I personally like the idea of a new UI where I can have my two-hander, one-hander, and shield all equipped at the same time. They are already modifying the UI to remove our ranged weapons, so it isn't too much of a stretch to hope they implement this.

That was an idea I had as well a while ago. I came to the conclustion that since warriors are the only class that needs extra gear to preform a move they would not change everyone UI just for us. Then cata was announced and all I could think of was "When the world itself is devoured by rage!".

Also, the removal of a ranged slot suggest that they don't want extra slots.

02/20/2012 06:44 AMPosted by Drede

Also, the removal of a ranged slot suggest that they don't want extra slots.

Could just as easily be seen as if they are wanting to make room for new, more useful, slots. ;)

The ranged slot was basically entirely useless for Warriors anyway, pure definition of a stat stick. We didn't even have a couple (or even one) ability that uses it, akin to Deadly Throw/Fan of Knives. No, Shoot/Throw doesn't count.

Anyway, being able to swap between 2h and s&b without the gcd penalty would be nice but might be abusable, not sure. You could just spam switch - if you're being attacked you stick to S&b but rotate to 2h every time you use a damaging ability. Not interactive with the player, just LOTS of macros. Not very good.

On the other hand they could just implement that no GCD thing into Tactical Mastery, and then put a 5-10s internal lockout on swapping weapons. Might be a bit annoying out of combat or w/e though.

The ranged slot was basically entirely useless for Warriors anyway, pure definition of a stat stick. We didn't even have a couple (or even one) ability that uses it, akin to Deadly Throw/Fan of Knives. No, Shoot/Throw doesn't count.

Anyway, being able to swap between 2h and s&b without the gcd penalty would be nice but might be abusable, not sure. You could just spam switch - if you're being attacked you stick to S&b but rotate to 2h every time you use a damaging ability. Not interactive with the player, just LOTS of macros. Not very good.

On the other hand they could just implement that no GCD thing into Tactical Mastery, and then put a 5-10s internal lockout on swapping weapons. Might be a bit annoying out of combat or w/e though.

A global cooldown removal on switching weapons would not help Spell Reflection or Shield Wall. Since they're both off the GCD. However, this is what i refer to as the "technical" global cooldown.

If you're spamming your MS, OP, Slam, Colossus Smash: realistically, there's no way you can get a spell refection off in time for an instant cast (Instant pyro, ice lance shatter with FoF, etc)

You'd have to preemptively stop your rotation in perpetration for an accurate reflect. (JK 2k ice lance hit)

Anyway, being able to swap between 2h and s&b without the gcd penalty would be nice but might be abusable, not sure. You could just spam switch - if you're being attacked you stick to S&b but rotate to 2h every time you use a damaging ability. Not interactive with the player, just LOTS of macros. Not very good.

That would be scary as heck TBH. Not to mention the "clunk" when ever I put a shield on would drive me nuts.

02/20/2012 09:04 AMPosted by Hooves

On the other hand they could just implement that no GCD thing into Tactical Mastery, and then put a 5-10s internal lockout on swapping weapons. Might be a bit annoying out of combat or w/e though.

They are removing that talent in MoP so it would not help in the long run.

I should point out that in in the MoP talents Tanking Warriors only have 2 tanking CDs compared to other classes that have 3-5, and the addition of another damage reduction CD would help them out.

My idea would be to add another, weaker, CD thats shared across all specs and have arms and fury lose SW.

Good idea?