World of Warcraft™

Tell me.

When has a war ever been won entirely through defense?

The Alliance has made very little progress in gaining new territories. And by giving minimal priority to their campaign against the Horde, they have lost many territories and settlements. They've only been defending, not attacking. If all you do is try to protect what you have, and nothing else... you will eventually lose everything to those who are willing to take it.

We don't need a protector. We need a CONQUEROR.

We need a ruler who promises, and delivers, glorious victory, and new territories for his people. We need new lands to call our own. We need to take back out rightful homelands, and drive back the invaders who would dare encroach upon our lands. The Night Elves' home is threatened by tree-chopping orcs as we speak. Dwarves are being killed on sight. The gnomes are still without a home. The Draenei and Worgen saw their homes destroyed by the races of the Horde. And most unforgivable of all is what the Forsaken have done to our rightful home in Lordaeron.

We must TAKE IT BACK.

So this I deeply implore to Varian:

Cast your crown aside, and don a BATTLE HELM for your people. Be our emperor. Lead us into battle, and we will follow you into jaws of death itself.... and cut our way through it from inside.

FOR THE EMPEROR.



Non-RP version:

Chris Metzen stated that they have big plans for Varian (Though I'm skeptical that he'll follow through with them), and that they plan to make him into a leader the Alliance would gladly follow. But I think he needs more than just a personality change. He needs a TITLE change. Blizz, please make Varian into an emperor. Not just an Alliance warchief. An EMPEROR. We would gain a tremendous boost, lore-wise, and a pretty darn cool warcry.

Yes I think that would be a great battle cry "For the Emperor!" vs "For the Horde!"

02/18/2012 05:51 PMPosted by Sarnoth

FOR THE EMPEROR.

You've been playing too much Warhammer 40k again haven't you?

02/18/2012 05:55 PMPosted by Robroyston

FOR THE EMPEROR.

You've been playing too much Warhammer 40k again haven't you?

No, I don't play crappy games.

02/18/2012 05:55 PMPosted by Sarnoth

No, I don't play crappy games.

You dislike both the strategy games and the board game? Congratulations, you will not be raised into undeath.

Your initial question is a touch misleading. The Alliance hasn't been fighting a defensive war since they started fighting the Barrens, Durotar, Tirisfal, Mulgore, the Hinterlands, etc. (i.e. its entire duration). Basically, this is as much a war for conquest as it is a defensive war.

Otherwise, yeah, I suppose having the Alliance go back to its imperialist (or at the very least expansionist) roots might be an interesting development.

Though I still think "For the Alliance" is a solid battle cry.

We need a Duke.

Duke of Stormwind. It's for The Duke. By Command of The Duke. Yes, My Duke.

It works. Varian becomes High-King and leaves Stormwind in the care of a Duke. The Grand Dukedom of Stormwind. The Duke is dead, Long Live The Duke.

what would the difference between emperor and a high king be? because they seem to be the same position to me.

emperor is the leader above all other leaders in a political sphere

high king is the leader above all other leaders in the alliance.

Your initial question is a touch misleading. The Alliance hasn't been fighting a defensive war since they started fighting the Barrens, Durotar, Tirisfal, Mulgore, the Hinterlands, etc. (i.e. its entire duration). Basically, this is as much a war for conquest as it is a defensive war.

All of those fronts that you listed were in response to Horde antagonism, and even then most of it is defensive, even the Barrens now that the Horde is gonna be pushing into Dustwallow.

And it's not really "conquest" as the Alliance doesn't intend to use any of said land aside from Lordaeron.

Otherwise, yeah, I suppose having the Alliance go back to its imperialist (or at the very least expansionist) roots might be an interesting development.

Er, since when does the Alliance have "expansionist and imperialist roots?" It was founded so its members could defend itself against the Horde.

All of those fronts that you listed were in response to Horde antagonism, and even then most of it is defensive, even the Barrens now that the Horde is gonna be pushing into Dustwallow.

And it's not really "conquest" as the Alliance doesn't intend to use any of said land aside from Lordaeron.

The Barrens were the first (known) event in this war. Events in Mulgore and the Barrens predate the current war. The Hinterlands have been a battlefield since the Wildhammer decided it'd be fun to murder some Trolls (some of which are Horde).

There are permanent Alliance settlements in all these zones. They weren't there before. There were other people there before. How is that anything other than conquest?

Unless you're arguing the Alliance is going to kill all the Horde races in those places, raze their own structures and then leave.

02/18/2012 06:55 PMPosted by Vyrin

Er, since when does the Alliance have "expansionist and imperialist roots?" It was founded so its members could defend itself against the Horde.

The Night Elves were the epitome of imperialism in their heyday. The Humans built their kingdoms on the rubble of other peoples. The Dwarves popped their city where people were already living. It wasn't a statement on the organization so much as on its individual races.

The Barrens were the first (known) event in this war. Events in Mulgore and the Barrens predate the current war. The Hinterlands have been a battlefield since the Wildhammer decided it'd be fun to murder some Trolls (some of which are Horde).

Ashenvale and Hillsbrad are the first known events in this war actually. Hillsbrad in particular started all the way back in Vanilla.

There are permanent Alliance settlements in all these zones. They weren't there before. There were other people there before. How is that anything other than conquest?

I didn't see much "permanent" stuff in the Barrens, the Dwarves have been living in the Hinterlands for hundreds of years, long before the Horde even existed, there are no Alliance forces in Mulgore.

Unless you're arguing the Alliance is going to kill all the Horde races in those places, raze their own structures and then leave.

In the case of Durotar and the Barrens, that's probably exactly what they'd do. They're deserts. Why would the Alliance want them? They wouldn't raze their own structures, probably just let them fall into ruin.

The Night Elves were the epitome of imperialism in their heyday. The Humans built their kingdoms on the rubble of other peoples. The Dwarves popped their city where people were already living. It wasn't a statement on the organization so much as on its individual races.

The Night Elves are no more imperialistic than Trolls, the Humans didn't build their kingdoms on anyone's rubble, that was the Elves (who are now part of the Horde.) Nobody was living inside Ironforge Mountain until the Dwarves hollowed it out.

Besides, everyone kills Trolls. Orcs kill Trolls, Elves kill Trolls, Tauren kill Trolls, Goblins kill Trolls, Gnolls kill Trolls, Titans kill Trolls, Dragons kill Trolls Murlocs kill Trolls. Trolls kill Trolls. It's hardly a "trademark" of the Alliance or Alliance races.

Although I should've known that you would default to "qq but the trolls!" even though that wasn't what I asked. I asked how the Alliance has "imperialistic roots." It has only existed for a few decades.

02/18/2012 07:25 PMPosted by Vyrin

I didn't see much "permanent" stuff in the Barrens, the Dwarves have been living in the Hinterlands for hundreds of years, long before the Horde even existed, there are no Alliance forces in Mulgore.

In the Hinterlands, the Alliance took in a race which was embroiled in offensive war against a local people.

Sound familiar?

02/18/2012 07:25 PMPosted by Vyrin

Nobody was living inside Ironforge Mountain until the Dwarves hollowed it out.

They didn't stay inside. Instead they conquered the local Trolls.

02/18/2012 07:25 PMPosted by Vyrin

The Night Elves are no more imperialistic than Trolls

The Night Elves were explicitly more imperialistic than the Trolls.

Lordaeron belonged to the Mossflayer before it belonged to the Humans. As in the entire continent.

So yeah, the Alliance races were imperialistic.

Only problem I have with an emperor is that it kind of leaves the other Alliance leaders in the dust.

Unless they decided they didn't like having an emperor after awhile, and it started some real cloak-and-dagger politics within the Alliance...er, Empire.

In the Hinterlands, the Alliance took in a race which was embroiled in offensive war against a local people.

Sound familiar?

The Amani's lands have comprised Zul'Aman ever since the Troll Wars. Who's to say that the Trolls aren't the ones on the offensive in the Hinterlands? This seems far more likely considering they were beaten back not once, but twice in their history.

Of course, I know that according to you, "all land is troll land" so I expect this will fall on deaf ears.

They didn't stay inside. Instead they conquered the local Trolls.

According to the Warcraft Bestiary on the old website, it was the Trolls who initiated that conflict due to their "unrelenting hostility towards outsiders." They ended up biting off more than they could chew when they made war on the nearby Dwarves, and lost their lands as a result. There's nothing to suggest that the Dwarves just decided "We want it one day." If anything, it's the Trolls who were imperialistic, not the Dwarves.

The Night Elves were explicitly more imperialistic than the Trolls.

Lordaeron belonged to the Mossflayer before it belonged to the Humans. As in the entire continent.

So yeah, the Alliance races were imperialistic.

The Night Elves are mutated Trolls.

The Trolls in Lordaeron were beaten back by the High Elves, now a Horde race. Hence, not "Alliance " or "human" imperialism.

And you didn't address my argument. How can you say that "imperialism and expansion" are trademarks of the Alliance due to their conflicts with Trolls when EVERY race and faction wars with the Trolls, including other trolls? If anything this points more to the Trolls being aggressive and imperialistic considering they initiated every single war they've ever been involved in, for the purpose of expanding their empires. The Alliance ends up beating up trolls and getting their lands due to fighting defensive wars against them, while the trolls lose their lands because they themselves always want more.

02/18/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Vyrin

The Amani's lands have comprised Zul'Aman ever since the Troll Wars. Who's to say that the Trolls aren't the ones on the offensive in the Hinterlands? This seems far more likely considering they were beaten back not once, but twice in their history.

The battle for Jintha'Alor is explicitly referred to, by the Wildhammer, as conquest. As in they use the word conquest in describing their war. It is literally conquest.

If Lordaeron belongs to Humanity, even when they no longer occupy it, then yes, "All land is Troll land". What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

From the Troll compendium, we know that it's the Humans who drove the Mossflayers out of Lordaeron, and that they continued to harry them afterwards.

And you didn't address my argument. How can you say that "imperialism and expansion" are trademarks of the Alliance due to their conflicts with Trolls when EVERY race and faction wars with the Trolls, including other trolls? If anything this points more to the Trolls being aggressive and imperialistic considering they initiated every single war they've ever been involved in.

What was there to address? You pulled the whole "Trolls started every war" out of your !@#.

We know the Trolls were explicitly not expansionist and imperialistic at the end of the Aqir war. We also know the Night Elves were explicitly expansionist, and came into conflict with the Trolls once they started claiming their areas.

We also know the Humans started their wars with the Trolls once they got to the continent of Lordaeron, and actively pursued the Trolls once they had beaten them and for years afterwards.

I really don't know how to argue with you if you're just going to ignore evidence that doesn't agree with you and outright fabricate your own.

Addendum for rerailing: While the organization that is the Alliance proper does not have a longstanding history of conquest, the various races which make it up each have long histories of conquering neighbours and establishing themselves on top of where they used to be (with exception to the Draenei and Gnomes).

Seeing these races return to these old ways might be a good way to get some juice flowing into the Alliance story once more.

The battle for Jintha'Alor is explicitly referred to, by the Wildhammer, as conquest. As in they use the word conquest in describing their war. It is literally conquest.

conquest (plural conquests)

1.Victory gained through combat; the subjugation of an enemy.
2.(figuratively, by extenstion) An act or instance of overcoming an obstacle.

They use it in describing winning Jintha'alor. That's perfectly in line with the description and doesn't mean that the entire war is one of "conquest." Technically, taking any land in a battle is "conquest." If the trolls had won it then it would still be conquest.

If Lordaeron belongs to Humanity, even when they no longer occupy it, then yes, "All land is Troll land". What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Difference: Humanity has only been out of Lordaeron for 8 years now, and they still control almost half of it now (Argent Crusade, Stromgarde, and Gilneas)

The Amani haven't had more than ZA for millenia. There's a certain rate of decay to one's abstract claim to territory after that amount of time.

From the Troll compendium, we know that it's the Humans who drove the Mossflayers out of Lordaeron, and that they continued to harry them afterwards.

"The Mossflayer tribe split off from the Amani empire after the Troll Wars and decided to abandon that section of Lordaeron altogether. Even so, humanity continued to harry the forest trolls."

This was after the Troll Wars. They were driven out because they attempted to invade again, much like they did in patch 2.3 and 4.1. Same act, they attempt to conquer human land, get driven back, Kellick QQ's that PvE factions are losing.

What was there to address? You pulled the whole "Trolls started every war" out of your !@#.

We know the Trolls were explicitly not expansionist and imperialistic at the end of the Aqir war. We also know the Night Elves were explicitly expansionist, and came into conflict with the Trolls once they started claiming their areas.

Again, Night Elves are technically Trolls as well. Troll on Troll violence is hardly uncommon, and the Night Elves technically won a civil war, they didn't outright conquer anything from another race.

And I saw nothing to suggest that they weren't aggressive and imperialistic, especially as far as the Frost Trolls are concerned, as the Blizzard Bestiary explicitly states that they're aggressive.

We also know the Humans started their wars with the Trolls once they got to the continent of Lordaeron, and actively pursued the Trolls once they had beaten them and for years afterwards.

Making up stuff now huh?

There's nothing to suggest that the Humans initiated war with the Amani. Them winning a war and killing their soldiers doesn't somehow mean that the Humans were aggressors. The High Elves, who are now part of the Horde, were aggressors (and, like the Night Elves, technically Trolls. Funny how we keep seeing Trolls acting aggressively?)

I really don't know how to argue with you if you're just going to ignore evidence that doesn't agree with you and outright fabricate your own.

If I do that, it's only because I learned it from you.

Now if you'll excuse me, time to run ZA again, because the instance if full of psychotic murderous trolls who are trying to eradicate the civilized peoples of Azeroth and establish an empire of savagery.

Addendum for rerailing: While the organization that is the Alliance proper does not have a longstanding history of conquest, the various races which make it up each have long histories of conquering neighbours and establishing themselves on top of where they used to be (with exception to the Draenei and Gnomes).

Seeing these races return to these old ways might be a good way to get some juice flowing into the Alliance story once more.

They have a long history of winning defensive wars against trolls in the case of the Humans and Dwarves and a long history of beating other trolls in civil wars in the case of Night Elves, not "expanding and conquering out of greed."

The idea is nice, if it wasn't so blatantly human-biased. There are four other races in the Alliance, and none of their leaders get the spotlight. I can see possibly a human empire of the reunited kingdoms, but not a human-runned empire of non-humans.

02/18/2012 08:40 PMPosted by Vyrin

Again, Night Elves are technically Trolls as well. Troll on Troll violence is hardly uncommon, and the Night Elves technically won a civil war, they didn't outright conquer anything from another race.

Very well then. How fine are you with the victors of a civil war now dwelling in Lordaeron?

Oh right, I recall you arguing that they were an entirely separate race from humans now. How does this work exactly?

Consistency!