Topic
MoP, Moonkins and PVP - Gladiator perspective
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Edited by Timeslice on 2/19/12 10:38 PM (PST)
Hi. Before I begin let me just say that I have played Moonkin in PVP for quite a while, and will do so in MoP. I have been Gladiator 3 times, and have been over 2700 as a Balance druid in 3v3.
The Good: 1. With Insect Swarm no longer a DoT, the braindead tab dot playstyle will be gone. 2. There is a lot more control/survivability offered in the talent tree. Disorienting Roar will be huge if left untouched. 3. Wild Charge will go a long way towards fixing age-old issues of Balance mobility, as well as considerably adding to the spec's skill cap given it's multiple uses. 4. Symbiosis allows you to fill a hole in your toolset by partnering with a class for a specific ability. I could envision situations where Moonkins are not very viable, but are able to get by in a certain comp that doubles up on a key spell through Symbiosis. Example: A Triple defensive dispel comp with Resto Shaman / Spriest / Moonkin (with Mass Dispel from Symbiosis). Symbiosis is a VERY exciting spell and brings a brand new dynamic to the spec. Really good idea, whoever came up with this one, Blizzard. 5. Bear/Cat abilities might not take an extra GCD to use. It's unclear how the 'this ability activates Bear Form' descriptions are intended to work, but if hitting Dash while in Moonkin form automatically puts you in Cat AND activates Dash within 1 GCD, then that is a MAJOR design fix / buff. The Bad: 1. Insect Swarm is no longer a DoT, therefore our damage will have to be casted. Hopefully this means a buff to our casted damage -- but it still remains unclear whether we will be able to reliably get casts off, especially with the increasing amount of CC/interrupts. Being able to cast Wrath while moving would be such a great thing for the spec, and we can always hope that maybe it will happen some day. If not, then we need something to be able to cast. 2. The PVP talent tree is probably even more cookie cutter than it is now, with http://us.battle.net...lator#Ua!202202 being the obvious spec for almost all situations. The 5th tier is really the only one that I could see being switched depending on comp, as perhaps Ursol's vortex would synergize well with some classes, such as Fire Mages and Ring of Frost (if Disorienting Roar DR's dragon's breath). The depressing: 1. Regrowth, gone. Lifebloom, gone. The two heals that we can currently use -- impotent as they are compared to other hybrids -- are perplexingly resto-only. This leaves us Rejuvenation and Healing Touch, which basically leaves us nothing. Moonkins won't really be hybrids in MoP, and that is really discouraging. Our heals have been awful all of Cata, but good druids were still able to utilize lifebloom vs casters and regrowth in certain key situations. Mushrooms have raised the skillcap of Moonkins in PVP, and I would really like to to see Wild Mushroom: Heal be available to all specs, but it really looks like they don't want us to be able to heal (strange given the inclusion of Tier 6 healing talents). Please Blizzard, if you're listening -- consider making Wild Mushroom: Bloom not resto-only. Mushrooms are fun. All druid specs should have access to them, especially if you are taking away our hots. 2. Skull Bash, gone. The one spell that raised our skill cap and differentiated good druids from bad ones is now Feral-only. This is flat-out sad. Please Blizzard, keep Skull Bash baseline for all specs. I'm begging you. It's a fun spell, and one that so few non-feral druids utilize. Please leave us the option to use it. The Moonkin spec needs more skillful things like Skull Bash, and less brainless things like tab dot spam. The main thing to keep in mind with these changes is that I can't see the survivablity/control offered by the MoP Talent tree getting any better; if anything it will get nerfed, because most of the things in these talent trees are borderline overpowered. Traditionally, when things are available to both Resto Druids AND Balance druids, the fact that Resto Druids are healers usually gets the control nerfed (remember Instant Roots?). Most of the time things become Resto-only and it severely hampers the Moonkin spec. When it's all on paper, I don't feel as though there is much to look forward to in terms of MoP Moonkin PVP. The spec is set to lose its hybrid properties with the removal of offhealing and Skull Bash. The move to a cast-oriented damage system is welcomed, but without the capability to heal I fear the spec will feel like a neutered ele-shaman playstyle, without the on-demand burst or offhealing. Again, it's too early to know for sure, but to me the situation looks pretty grim. To be a truly viable spec outside of LSD2 gimmickery, we would probably need our current healing abilities PLUS all these talent changes. Trading one for the other doesn't seem like it will have a positive impact. |
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Mmmm, I'm kind of curious as to why you think that's the only choice for pvp. Isn't having a instant ranged snare fairly useful as well? I can see maybe why treants end up being the best choice, but seems a bit early to call it.
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Depends on your comp. Ranged slows would be great with a Fire Mage, for example. Playing with a Death Knight, for example, would make Typhoon a better choice (Symbiosis?[CoI]; Desolation). |
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Edited by Timeslice on 2/20/12 10:39 AM (PST)
It's just kind of sad. Expansion announcements just be exciting, not depressing. The cornerstone of the druid class is being removed from our spec (hybridism). I'd be fine if they took away our hots but left us a decent flash-heal equivalent, but that's gone too.
I get that maybe they don't want to homogenize the hybrids through them all having a 'flash heal' in Regrowth/Healing Surge/Flash Heal, but then why take away Lifebloom as well? It just doesn't make sense to me from a design perspective. It's not like other classes where they have too much control and therefore some of their abilities are placed in the same talent tier to reduce that control. Our heals are ALREADY bad. They should be getting better in MoP, not destroyed completely. It would make farm more sense to make REJUVENATION resto-only, and allow us to keep Regrowth. This would mirror the priest renew change. Is it intentional that Ele Shamans and Shadow Priests get to keep Healing Surge and Flash Heal but we lose our equivalent? This has to be an oversight, right? |
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Heart of the wild will make it so eclipse also benefits your healing abilities, AND gives you lunar and solar energy. Moonkin form still takes you out of rooting effects in MOP so I would pick that over Disentanglement. With that spell, I'm not sure why you think our heals will be underpowered. Sure, getting Lifebloom taken away really sucks, but on the other hand it looks like blizzard is trying to fix the dot, hot and run type of play-style we have at the moment. Which, will be more entertaining for those like me who make Youtube videos. We will still be Hybrids for sure. I'm looking forward to the far more survivalbility, casting healing touch with Heart of the Wild spec and having it actually DO SOMETHING. And honestly, I'd trade lifebloom right at this instant for a reason not to be trained in 3v3.
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Keep in mind dispell will remove all debuffs. So a dispell rotation on tank will be funny : IS,sunfire, moonfire dispell , repeat over and over, gl doing any damage.
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Yes I know talents like those buff healing. The issue is landing any heals since Healing touch has a huge cast time. In pvp it will be next to impossible. |
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Edited by Stommped on 2/20/12 5:54 PM (PST)
I disagree that if the talents left untouched the spec you linked will be the cookie cutter (assuming the build you are referring to is the same one you linked on AJ, since the one in your OP doesn't work).
I really like Faerie Swarm if it's left untouched, and I think it can be more beneficial for kiting melee for when Wild Charge is on cooldown. For Tier 4 I don't see how you pick Force of Nature when you have no idea what they will be doing in respect to the druid's spec. Assuming it's damage is buffed so they do damage equivalent to say a Gargoyle, and they cast Wraths or something it definitely could be what we pick up. If the talent stays as garbage as it currently is then I would definitely pick up one of the other two talents. Incarnation needs its duration and CD reduced, since it's extremely hard to chain cast for 30secs and get full use of that talent. Tier 5 is definitely a complete toss up. We will have to see how Ursol's Vortex works, it has 50% uptime, but does it only pull people in range one time? Or does it continuously pull them for the duration that the Vortex is active? Even Mighty Bash looks really nice having a Moonkin Stun vs. Disorientating Roar which will break if you have a Moonfire on the target. Definitely a toss up across the board in this tier. The Tier 6 argument I have ties into your disappointment in losing Regrowth and LB. I agree that the loss of Regrowth and LB definitely suck, but we will have new ways of self healing to make up for those losses (NS Healing Touch, Disentanglement). Now if we want to be able to off heal as well we would probably pick up Dream of Cenarius and focus on using Healing Touch to heal our partners. With the longer CD on interrupts and the increased mobility/kiting we have to get away from melee it might actually be feasible to get a Healing Touch cast off. 30% increased Starsurge after we cast a Healing Touch is definitely nice as well. Definitely sucks we have to give up the Disentanglement in order to do this however. Losing Skull Bash definitely sucks, and I'm quite sure the removal has nothing to do with their intention of nerfing Moonkin, but rather that Skull Bash simple feels like a "Feral" ability. Very similar to how Solar Beam feels like a "Moonkin" ability. All in all I feel your post is premature. There is still months and months of beta testing to do and I can assure you the Druid talents will not go live as they currently are. I am cautiously optimistic about Moonkin's increased mobility through Wild Charge, the 1 min NS which we can use for an instant 8/9 sec Cyclone (Tooltip would imply 9 but it might be subject to the 8 sec max PvP duration), Symbiosis in general (getting Mass Dispel would be huge, and dispelling fears, dots is almost as good as off healing). However, every other class is getting new mobility/CC abilities that they can use to counter what we have gained. I am also worried that if Moonkin want to be successful in 3's, they will again have to be paired with a Warlock. 8 sec CD on dispel which will get Moonfire and Sunfire (if we have both on the target) and Insect Swarm means we will have to re Insect Swarm and re Dot the target we are attempting to kill every 8 secs if we want our nukes to do decent damage. Without the threat of UA silence there is no reason not to spam Dispell on CD on whichever target has Insect Swarm, since you know that will be the target the Moonkin is attempting to kill. I would like to see Insect Swarm passively applied like Trauma if it goes live this way. |
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I really doubt that Symbiosis will ever give or receive spells that are gained through talents, like Typhoon. |
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Who cares, moonkin has always, always, always sucked for pvp. It will continue this way forever. I remember how pumped I was for Solar Beam and guess what happened? IT GOT NERFED BEFORE IT CAME OUT! Yup, it did. Anybody remember how?
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I also want to say that Nature's Swiftness being a 1 minute cooldown and making Cyclone 8 seconds is HORRIBLY overpowered. Instant CC is the problem with the game right now, and that is only making it worse.
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You didn't mention Nature's Grasp has only 1 charge now as well :P
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Then they haven't removed it from the Talent Calculator tool tip, which is their fault, not mine. What a stupid Nerf.
In MoP healing touch will be a 2.5 second cast, with haste it will be less than two seconds. If they really did make it so that Moonkin Form cannot shapeshift roots and we have to go with Disentanglement, thats a different story, and one that like you said, is depressing. |
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Y you try and take our instant clone out?
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Having an instant, undispellable, unbubble-able 8 second CC on a 1 minute cooldown WILL be overpowered. It's not a matter of trying to 'get us nerfed', it's just something that is going to need to change.
You guys are right about Faerie Swarm possibly being useful in certain situations; I overlooked that one. The fact remains that a 2.5s base Healing Touch is just too long a cast to get off in PVP, especially when attempting to do so will cause you to take 15% more damage from being out of form. Lifebloom and Regrowth were our GOOD healing spells in PVP, and they've replaced them with our worst ones in Rejuv and HT. I mean, what is there to look forward to in MoP, ability-wise. Symbiosis is exciting, and Wild Charge comes second I guess. But... that's it, right? It just isn't as exciting as I remember previous expansions being. I remember in Wotlk, looking ahead and seeing Solar Beam, Starsurge, Skull Bash, Wild Mushrooms all being added on TOP of what was already good about the spec. This time around, some of the fun aspects of the spec are being taken away, and the new abilities barely even seem to fill the holes they just created. I feel like expansions should be exciting, but the current design just feels blah. |
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Thank you for your analysis! I was looking for an experienced Boomkin's perspective!
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Your healing in boomkin form I think is going to come from NS. With the obscene amount of SP from being balance anyway and combined with Dreams of Cenarius would make for an almost LoH-sized heal every minute.
But one thing concerns me: NS may make any of those spells castable in any form but what about NS itself? Was considering a guardian-spec. |
