World of Warcraft™

Honestly, there is none. All DPS classes should be capable of similar DPS. For example, a fire mage and/or combat rogue shouldn't be able to out DPS me simply because they chose to roll a mage or rogue when they first picked up WOW.

This has been my main for years, and I've never been fond of the idea that my class held me back...I also never really commented because I hadn't ever played any of the allegedly more difficult DPS specs. But now I have. I have a 390 ilvl demo/affliction lock and a 390 ilvl combat/sub rogue that I leveled in cataclysm -- mostly because ret was utterly terrible for 2/3 of the expansion.

Both the lock and rogue are laughably easy to play and master. The only even semi-difficult spec is sub rogue, and that isn't even close to the rogue's top performing PVE spec.

So what is the justification? Is it population? I can't believe that blizzard still thinks that there is strong correlation between DPS potential and population -- years of rogues, locks and hunters being low pop is a testament to that.

So why not just make all DPS classes have similar capabilities?

Don't even get me started on the hybrid tax -- the day I can switch specs and gear mid-fight without having to eat/drink in between is the first day the idea of a hybrid tax holds any water.

They are pretty close... in a patchwerk scenario. But different classes have different mechanics, and as such, some are more useful on some fights than others. Arms takes the lead on Ultraxion, for example, because it gains more resources from the high damage going out. Retribution does quite well when enemies are Undead. Unholy does well on fights where it can soak damage with AMS to fuel Death Coil. Frost does well when there are adds to blast down. Fire benefits heavily when there are percentage damage modifiers applied, because it can double dip them (bigger ignite/LB/pyro dots, which mean bigger combustions, which in turn are increased).

The differences aren't huge, and amount to - at most - a 10% difference between the worst and best specs on a fight. Usually, it's closer to a 5% difference.

Not #1 on recount, going to forums

If every class did the exact same damage it would be pretty underwhelming.

02/21/2012 08:35 PMPosted by Malachi

Don't even get me started on the hybrid tax -- the day I can switch specs and gear mid-fight without having to eat/drink in between is the first day the idea of a hybrid tax holds any water.

Bull#$^%. You can bless kings or might, give everyone an aura and 3% damage increase, Hand of Protection a dying Mage, Hand of Salvation a -well, you probably need that one for yourself, you're the only dps spec who can give a tank or someone else an external cooldown, you can save someone's life occasionally with a timely Lay on Hands. All without changing specs or ever casting a heal (which you can do better than anyone else in the game if you choose to put together a Holy Set). Those are the things being a hybrid means, utility, toolkit aside from damage, not switching on the fly to a full-on healer.

I'm not saying life's perfect for Ret, but I'm saying Ret's in as good of place as it really ever has been, flashes of god-mode aside. You're comfortably in the middle of the DPS pack, and the pack's not really that wide. If you're doing terribly, that's your fault.

Both the lock and rogue are "laughably easy to master"?
you sir, must be an absolute terrible warlock.
Warlocks are arguably the hardest class to "master"

02/21/2012 08:35 PMPosted by Malachi

Both the lock and rogue are laughably easy to play and master

nice troll

funny, my class holds me back too, oddly enough, I don't seem to have a tank or a heal tree....

There are what, ten plus damage specs, each with their own abilities and play styles? Good luck ever getting them perfectly balanced. It's literally impossible out side of a boring fix.

With the nature of this game, it will never be balanced. There will be a top, middle and bottom. If that paladin is your main, and you enjoy playing it, then stop caring about everyone else. If you want to compare your damage with other people, use world of logs and check yourself against other retribution paladins.


Come Mists though, I feel the gap between classes will shrink. With most damage increasing abilities baseline and moved out of talents, balancing them should be easier on Blizzard's end. Even then, it'll never be perfect.

02/21/2012 08:35 PMPosted by Malachi

hunters being low pop

is this supposed to be a joke thread?

They are pretty close... in a patchwerk scenario. But different classes have different mechanics, and as such, some are more useful on some fights than others. Arms takes the lead on Ultraxion, for example, because it gains more resources from the high damage going out. Retribution does quite well when enemies are Undead. Unholy does well on fights where it can soak damage with AMS to fuel Death Coil. Frost does well when there are adds to blast down. Fire benefits heavily when there are percentage damage modifiers applied, because it can double dip them (bigger ignite/LB/pyro dots, which mean bigger combustions, which in turn are increased).

The differences aren't huge, and amount to - at most - a 10% difference between the worst and best specs on a fight. Usually, it's closer to a 5% difference.

I feel like the argument that "different classes to better on different encounters due to different mechanics" would be a lot better if fire mages and combat rogues didn't dominate the logs on every. single. fight.

02/21/2012 09:17 PMPosted by Alteredfreak

Not #1 on recount, going to forums

it's not necessarily that. sure that's part of it, but mostly it's the fact that there isn't any real justification why a ret shouldn't be number one on DPS...there no justification that any DPS class shouldn't have that opportunity if they're a good enough player.

Both the lock and rogue are "laughably easy to master"?
you sir, must be an absolute terrible warlock.
Warlocks are arguably the hardest class to "master"

Look, any argument that any class is "hard" is ridiculous; This is an easy game. So the disparity between how "hard" it is to competitively play an arcane mage and how "hard" it is to competitively play a demo lock is a joke.

Sorry if you get your ego boosts from playing your supposedly "more complicated" DPS spec...but it's not justified. This game is easy.

02/22/2012 01:23 AMPosted by Tyiako

funny, my class holds me back too, oddly enough, I don't seem to have a tank or a heal tree....

weird -- why don't you level a class that does? With heirlooms it takes 2 days. Why not do that? Oh right because you'd have to spend weeks gearing up the hybrid to make it viable and then, when you were playing your tank or healing hybrid, you wouldn't have anyone playing DPS because, just like with me, at the end of the day you can't play two roles during the same encounter.

There are what, ten plus damage specs, each with their own abilities and play styles? Good luck ever getting them perfectly balanced. It's literally impossible out side of a boring fix.

With the nature of this game, it will never be balanced. There will be a top, middle and bottom. If that paladin is your main, and you enjoy playing it, then stop caring about everyone else. If you want to compare your damage with other people, use world of logs and check yourself against other retribution paladins.


Come Mists though, I feel the gap between classes will shrink. With most damage increasing abilities baseline and moved out of talents, balancing them should be easier on Blizzard's end. Even then, it'll never be perfect.

I understand this, I was posting mainly because you see a lot people trying to justify the DPS disparity by suggesting these classes must be harder to play or don't bring other raid buffs to justify their raid spot -- it simply isn't true. Not only are pure DPS classes just as easy to play as every other DPS class, but they bring raid buffs that are just as vital to a raid's success as supposed hybrids do.

If the difference in DPS is due to it being difficult to manage all of the classes' mechanics, that's somewhat understandable, though I think the fact that many of the pures have historically been, as blizzard calls it, "top tier dps," undercuts that argument -- I think it's clear that blizzard has a chart somewhere that outlines who should be where based on class...and that's disappointing.

02/21/2012 08:35 PMPosted by Malachi

Honestly, there is none. All DPS classes should be capable of similar DPS. For example, a fire mage and/or combat rogue shouldn't be able to out DPS me simply because they chose to roll a mage or rogue when they first picked up WOW.

All classes should be capable of all things. For example, a paladin shouldn't be able to fulfil multiple roles simply because they chose to roll a paladin when they first picked up WOW.

:P

funny, my class holds me back too, oddly enough, I don't seem to have a tank or a heal tree....

weird -- why don't you level a class that does? With heirlooms it takes 2 days. Why not do that? Oh right because you'd have to spend weeks gearing up the hybrid to make it viable and then, when you were playing your tank or healing hybrid, you wouldn't have anyone playing DPS because, just like with me, at the end of the day you can't play two roles during the same encounter.

With LFR, 384ilvl gear from 5-man instances, and the fact that at this stage of the expansion, a guild run can carry anyone through normal content, it takes 2 days to gear up an offspec.

See? I can exaggerate too. Moreover, one of the issues of not wanting to change mains is that my alt wouldn't have all the achievements...

:P

I feel like the argument that "different classes to better on different encounters due to different mechanics" would be a lot better if fire mages and combat rogues didn't dominate the logs on every. single. fight.

Hmm.... I suspect someone is using top 100 parses. Clearly, less time should be spent playing WOW and more time in school learning about statistics.

02/22/2012 04:24 AMPosted by Vaeleon

weird -- why don't you level a class that does? With heirlooms it takes 2 days. Why not do that? Oh right because you'd have to spend weeks gearing up the hybrid to make it viable and then, when you were playing your tank or healing hybrid, you wouldn't have anyone playing DPS because, just like with me, at the end of the day you can't play two roles during the same encounter.

With LFR, 384ilvl gear from 5-man instances, and the fact that at this stage of the expansion, a guild run can carry anyone through normal content, it takes 2 days to gear up an offspec.

See? I can exaggerate too. Moreover, one of the issues of not wanting to change mains is that my alt wouldn't have all the achievements...

:P

You honestly think 2 days to level to 85 is an exaggeration? 48 hours of gameplay time.

I feel like the argument that "different classes to better on different encounters due to different mechanics" would be a lot better if fire mages and combat rogues didn't dominate the logs on every. single. fight.

Hmm.... I suspect someone is using top 100 parses. Clearly, less time should be spent playing WOW and more time in school learning about statistics.

Yeah, you should start with reading up on ad hominem arguments. To answer your point -- look beyond the top 100 parses...look to the top 1000, top 2000...fire mages dominate, unquestionably.