Prot OOM issues

90 Blood Elf Paladin
12270
I realize sanctuary affects dodge and block (not parry) per mana gain, so it's raising questions for me. Long ago...I hit CTC and started taking mastery off to raise my pure avoidance. I'm currently around 20% dodge with trink stacked and 20% parry, 57% block, and I use dodge food in raids (offsetting any DR occurances while my trink stacks may not be up), 192k hp with only kings.

I'm wondering if anyone else has tried to stack pure avoidance and hit an oom point. I'm seriously considering dropping my parry to about 15% and perhaps my dodge to 18% (raising block to CTC and offsetting any remaining stat points with stam) just to keep from ooming.

Does this seem adviseable? Or are there perhaps any other recommendations? I'm not seeing much other than "Stack mast til CTC then stam" which seems insane. I did that around the 15% D/P mark and still felt like I got hit too often.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18820
Your avoidance shouldn't have any noticeable effect on your mana at all. Mastery to CTC then stamina is the best returns for effective health. Avoidance is quite a bit worse.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12270
I didnt ask about effective health. You could CTC with 250k hp and healers would hate you for getting hit all the time.

My issue was that I oom'd from lack of regen from Sanctuary (possibly too high of Parry)
Avoidance is extremely effective considering if you avoid enough, debuff stacks drop, you need much less healing, your healers aren't nailbiting to keep you alive.

I realize my avoidance is more than the normal Pally, but that was intentional. I'm not having survivability issues due to lack of stam.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18820
02/22/2012 02:40 PMPosted by Pogzor
I didnt ask about effective health. You could CTC with 250k hp and healers would hate you for getting hit all the time.


No, not unless they were stupid healers. Being CTC capped is simply to remove hits from the combat table because that all but removes the threat of physical spikes. After that, a higher health pool helps your healers.

My issue was that I oom'd from lack of regen from Sanctuary (possibly too high of Parry)


No, that is not why you run out of mana. If you are making gearing decisions based on the fact that you are running out of mana, you are making mistakes on a level that deserves epic prose.

Avoidance is extremely effective considering if you avoid enough, debuff stacks drop, you need much less healing, your healers aren't nailbiting to keep you alive.


It'd be extremely effective if anything that was actually dangerous was physical.
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90 Human Paladin
8535
Do you use Consecration?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18820
02/22/2012 02:49 PMPosted by Valpin
Do you use Consecration?


He uses it enough that he took Hallowed Ground instead of Sacred Duty.
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90 Human Paladin
8535
02/22/2012 02:51 PMPosted by Cayse
Do you use Consecration?


He uses it enough that he took Hallowed Ground instead of Sacred Duty.


Ah, that he did. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that was a bad decision.

Heck, I can't remember the last time I went OOM. It might have been when someone had a timer left on Mass Rez and I had to use Redemption.
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90 Human Paladin
9555
Adding avoidance, especially dodge should see you with more mana back from sanctuary. The only times I find myself low on mana is if I either miss with or fail to use judgement for any period of time judgement of the just is quite a lot of mana back
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12270
It may be due to lack of hit, coupled with high parry. I hadnt thought of that.

Adding stam to CTC from only mast makes you a mana sponge all the same.
Taking 31% less damage (factor in 62% armor redux) vs being CTC and taking zero of the damage
100k hit
roughly 42k dmg taken vs zero
...the math shows avoidance stacking as being easier to heal.


Take note of what I've already said. I'm still CTC capped with 41% avoidance and 57% block (and 5% built in miss)


I do use consecration for general filler and aoe, but it's very cheap from my spec and not performed when I'm low mana. Sacred Duty is something I've played with the idea of changing to. I swap spec about twice a month trying new things.

And my gearing decisions were based solely upon avoidance. If I wanted only mana regen I'd reglyph and my gear wouldnt be this balanced and itemized.

Thank you for the posts, I've a better idea of what it may be now.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18820
Taking 31% less damage (factor in 62% armor redux) vs being CTC and taking zero of the damage
100k hit
roughly 42k dmg taken vs zero
...the math shows avoidance stacking as being easier to heal.


You'd best run and tell Theck that, I don't know how he could have missed it. This will turn proper tank gearing on its head!
Edited by Cayse on 2/22/2012 3:53 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13260
It's like the OP missed all the correct theory crafting on tanking...for years. Avoidance makes you spiky, not smooth as far as damage intake is concerned.
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02/22/2012 02:40 PMPosted by Pogzor
You could CTC with 250k hp and healers would hate you for getting hit all the time.


No they wouldnt.

02/22/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Pogzor
Adding stam to CTC from only mast makes you a mana sponge all the same.


No it doesn't. Where are you getting your info from? 3patches ago from 333 tanks? Seriously.

Taking 31% less damage (factor in 62% armor redux) vs being CTC and taking zero of the damage
100k hit


Point for point mastery is more Damage Reduction than avoidance. You cant get to the point where you always avoid all attacks due to Diminishing Returns. Its a CHANCE at a 100% reduction and unless your in all greens mastery will be better.

Thus why at the block cap you want stack mastery and replace avoidance with stamina.

02/22/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Pogzor
...the math shows avoidance stacking as being easier to heal.


Yeah it also shows that its completely gimp this point in the game. Infinite mana+block capped+hard hitting abilities that ignore avoidance=stack stamina.

02/22/2012 04:02 PMPosted by Faestus
Avoidance makes you spiky


No. Avoidance makes you less spikey. But its RNG and its main benefit, healer mana, is non-existant when healers never go oom healing tanks.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8850
Aren't block tanks supposed to gem stam after CTC cap?

Srsly, at this point of the expansion, nobody gives a crap about how much damage you take, the reason why you CTC cap is to reduce spikes, same logic for gemming stam after CTC cap.

Tank damage is so tier 11 and tier 12. Heck, I wouldn't mind going into DS with tanks (not blood DKs, they still gem pure mastery) gemming pure stam. Most spikes in DS aren't even blockable/avoidable damage........oh wait, tanks still take damage? What?


BTW how to not oom on a prot pally:

1) Use more Judgments.
2) Take Consecration out of your rotation completely, only use them when you have need to pick up large groups of adds. Heck, you can get away with not using that spell at all.
3) Profit.

P.S. Fix your spec, they look terrible.

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZGMhcRkdRRucbG
Edited by Saih on 2/22/2012 4:44 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12270
You're rude and don't understand what I asked at all. Be a prick somewhere else. I couldn't care less about your imput.
I thanked those that had meaningful and productive imputs already. CTC and stam stacking = alot more damage taken per fight.
My ooming isnt from the 2400 mp cost of consecration either. I have .77% hit and only 8% from talents. I'm not spell hit capped like a Holy pally... so my judgements haven't been hitting like I've needed, and I've changed my rotation to better support that.

Also the spec you linked had persuit of justice 2/2 which is useless. (You complain about damage taken by tanks being negligable, yet you don't take note of the fact no fights are tank movement oriented) You're ignorance to prot shows.


02/22/2012 04:34 PMPosted by Saih
P.S. Fix your spec, they look terrible.

By the way L2English
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18820
You could care less, because you posted again to whine.

I don't OOM tanking, and I have zero hit.

You don't understand the game, if you actually think PoJ is useless.

02/22/2012 06:32 PMPosted by Pogzor
By the way L2English


02/22/2012 06:32 PMPosted by Pogzor
You're ignorance to prot shows.


Oh yeah?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12270
How often do you need to be moving in fights while tanking? Windwalk procs already gives a speed boost, regardless 2/2 persuit isn't necessary considering where you could put the 2nd point for a dps/tps gain.

Hagara, minimal movement by tank
H:Morchok, minimal movement and still factoring in not outrunning your group for stomps, etc
Warmaster, minimal movement by tank
Spine and Madness are also only small amounts of movement. That extra movement speed isn't great by any stretch of the imagination in my opinion.
I'd rather hit harder and squeeze in more damage since I'm usually standing fairly still anyways.

My spec has served me fine with movement speed NEVER being an issue. My original issue was that I had oom'd on a few fights, which has been addressed.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12270
The sentence was meant to be "You're ignorant to prot."
But I changed the sentence to be more accusing. I did miss the "you're". Apologies.
However yes, I feel PoJ 2/2 is useless and considering most fights have minimal movement, I'd take a dps/tps talent any time.

BTW Cayse, you have 8% hit from spec like everyone else.
I can't inspect your prot gear because it's not equipped, however GJ on getting the drops to itemize hit off of your gear. I've found that the hit on the Tier gloves is just so annoying, shame they're BiS.
Edited by Pogzor on 2/22/2012 6:56 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18820
And yet you don't have sacred duty.

Your posts and spec are indicative that you don't understand a great deal of what's going on, and your conclusions on tanking aren't just wrong, they're wrong in the face of overwhelmingly detailed math which is very easy to find, done by people that Blizzard respects for their knowledge.
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