Wrath Heroics were the biggest mistake in WoW

100 Human Paladin
12405
02/28/2012 01:04 AMPosted by Akatsuki
The truth is, the majority of you are just lazy and don't want to get better, and are impatient. Complaining just 5 days after Cata is released because you cannot clear heroics revealed the truth and just refuted all of your arguments.


I'm not lazy and I'm not asking to be handed DS level heroics. All I'm asking is to get something for my time invested.


Did you complain that heroics were too hard just 5 days after Cata was released? If no, then I wasn't referring to you.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
5270
Right, because they would have quit the game during Wrath and not even bought Cataclysm.

But whine away, Blizzard knows they should ignore your kind of noise now. It's a shame learning that lesson cost them $200+ M.


Hey I agree with the OP and I'm still here.

And games that aim to make money end up pleasing nobody. They should pick a target audience that they want and make the game for that audience. The reason they lost so many subs was because they actually did that at the beginning of Cataclysm, and that pissed off all the kids who didn't happen to be in that audience.

Sadly, investors whine louder than players.
Edited by Genrik on 2/28/2012 1:22 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
1020
I was lucky enough to play wrath of the lich king in beta. I still to this day remember how rough it was trying to make it through UK while the game was still in beta and the dungeon was still severely overtuned. Everything hit so hard in there.

Then a couple months after it went live I was healing it on my druid and I was thinking, "you're kidding me...."
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90 Human Death Knight
11565
Actually it wasn't the difficulty of the cata heroics that bothered me.

It was the incredibly poor rewards for doing the heroics that bothered me.

Sure wotlk heroics were faceroll, but at least you'd see that 1 epic item at the final boss

Cata ones you had to plan out a bit better, CC other junk, then to receive loot on par with the very first boss?

Wasn't the heroics that were to hard, was that the rewards were to low for the amount of effort
Even BC heroics offered the 1 epic item
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I don't understand why a discussion of Wrath mechanics is even relevant anymore. You didn't like it? Fine. Cataclysm has been out for over a year. Players that wanted their hardcore modes got what they wanted. Those players who didn't want that level of challenge had other options until they could get geared enough to go to harder content, yet the backlash from this type of design was met with just as much animosity as the Wrath design.

If you don't like "casuals" playing the same game as you, tough luck kid. If your ego is damaged by more people seeing content, the problem lies with you. If you think game is going to "easy mode", then quit if it isn't what you want.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
10860
I'm sorry OP but you are wrong. The key difference between BC and Wrath is the LFD tool. I love the LFD tool since it makes finding a group when my guild-mates are not around a very easy and painless process. However, I don't know those people. I don't coordinate with them and I don't have a good way to coordinate with them. Chat is cumbersome in combat compared to Vent. That made it very difficult to handle some of the mechanics in Cata 5mans.

I think people like you, OP, need to realise the niche of customer that 5man and H 5man content now serve. Those dugeons are for the folks to who want to log in and do a relaxing dungeon run in a half-hour to 45 minutes. You want a challenge then go raid Normals or Heroics, which I really do have a problem with Blizz nerfing into the ground but that's another thread. Just do your 5mans, get your min ilvl to raid and move on. Leave 5mans to the casual crowd. And remember, casual =/= bad just as raider =/= good.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12100
I remember in Wrath that one raid group that was clearing ICC in blues. I don't recall how far they were able to get, but it was impressive. If people really wanted a challenge, they'd be doing that type of thing in Cata.

I also remember Oculus having to get a bribe attached to get people to stay, people ditching HoR like mad and Pound getting nerfed in the spider dungeon.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9255
LFG kinda made this game More like the sims and less like a world.
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100 Tauren Shaman
15745
02/28/2012 12:21 AMPosted by Schierke
Ok seriously, where is this horse at?


It's that paste on the ground you're standing on. It was thoroughly beaten into oblivion.
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BC dungeons were fun but most of them were way too long.
Wrath dungeons started hard being in greens and blues weren't too bad but with the gear upgrades they ended up way too easy at the end of the expansion.
Cata. didn't like any of them all annoying, except for the newer ones they were a bit more fun.
bottom line is when you hit max level and are fresh starting heroics they are hard when you have the gear and the strategies down they are much much easier. for any expansion.
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85 Human Paladin
7275
People would never have whined about Cata heroics were Wrath heroics were any where near as difficult as the BC heroics. Wrath heroics caused massive degradation in the ability of the player base. It is something that has effected almost all parts of WoW to this day.

Wrath heroics even at launch were faceroll compared to their BC counterparts. People were AoE tanking in blues and greens at launch. The only hard boss in a heroic at launch for wrath was Loken. It taught players who were use to the calculated runs of BC that facerolling everything was the way to victory. People became use to that style especially with the fact Wrath lasted a lot longer than anyone expected.

Naxx 80 wasn't much better. It was a repeat from vanilla except grossly undertuned. It was so undertuned that 70 sunwell gear was enough to clear the place.


Very true. It taught players to play bad. Just like LFR. Although LFR is 100x worse.


Lol I missed several Twilight Onslaught's on Warmaster b/c of LFR XD

Very disturbing how easy it is XD
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
10925
Well, I really don't understand people blaming Cata heroics for being hard. The strategies were complex but doable. In my case what made the runs difficult and long, were no other than the players. Bad players will be bad
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100 Draenei Death Knight
10145
02/27/2012 06:45 PMPosted by Dragomaxor
Naxx 80 wasn't much better. It was a repeat from vanilla except grossly undertuned. It was so undertuned that 70 sunwell gear was enough to clear the place.


If you go into Naxxramas at 85th level wearing Sunwell Plateau gear, you're sure to have few issues, as health pools, mana pools, resource availability, enchants, gems, etc. are sure to provide you with considerable advantage over the people who were going into Naxxramas at 80 wearing Blues and the odd Epic from Wrath Heroics.

I personally would enjoy watching you go in at 70th level in full Sunwell gear, however, and expect to clear it. My suspicion is Patchwerk would gleefully be chewing on your face for awhile. ;)
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90 Night Elf Hunter
9000
02/27/2012 10:45 PMPosted by Goldbrand
In a way it does. Current games like CoD have given breed to a new generation of gamers that want instant-gratification. No-brainer games like CoD that doesn't require thinking, have spoilt the current generation to have everything now instead of taking on challenge in order to get better rewards.


I'll assume you are younger than me, but not a kid.

The concept of 'reward' in games is a very recent development. Prior to that the reward for killing a boss in game was that you progressed to the next stage of the game. Only in RPG's and a few other games where you 'rewarded' with better gear, but that gear only served the purpose of making the next stage easier (since you couldn't 'show off' you cool new toy).

Since the explosion of non-LAN multiplayer games, you now have the concept of reward for rewards sake. Which means blaming CoD and its players for WoW's 'problems' is not valid. CoD is an FPS where the skill is not in who has the better gear and can maximize their performance despite RNG, but who can aim and shoot faster and more accurate (you might get a slight advantage if you have a better weapon, but that only matters when you factor in other things like placement and movement). The reward for doing so is the faster unlocking of better weapons and upgrades (and I would argue that this system is just as 'difficult' if not more so as MMO 'reward' structure).

I actually blame online multiplayer for these issues, as I grew up during a time of beating a game for my own gratification and not the need to show off achievements or 'cool' gear. The difficultly level only came into effect if I thought normal was too easy or hard, in which case I just changed difficulty and carried on. But since I couldn't prove I beat it on XYZ difficulty, I didn't tie any self worth to said completion.
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85 Human Death Knight
5140
As if wrath heroics @ release were faceroll. Heroic Utgarde Pinnacle, Heroic HoL etc were a pain until people got the mechanics. Everyone remembers the end of wrath, not the beginning because there was much crap to be had. Ditto for the 3 dungeons put in with the Lich King dungeons. Halls of Reflection was nothing but the wait game as tanks/healers dc'ed as soon as they log in. Either way, as you geared up heroics got easier and easier, and this is the case with Cata too now anyways.

Also the idea that somehow blizzard made a mistake with WotlK is nonsense. By end of BC, most people would have easily cleared Karazhan then finished all heroics. Forget the higher end raids. Dungeons / Raids should be created with majority of customers in mind and the "hard mode" system works out great for that.

The idea that a lot of people posting here would rather mindlessly farm for months at a time for a status symbol in the game, instead of allowing everyone to enjoy the game's content to its fullest is disturbing. The challenge is present in the form of hardmode raiding, everything else and everyone else should be left alone.
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85 Human Death Knight
5140


How the hell does this relate to Blizzard.


In a way it does. Current games like CoD have given breed to a new generation of gamers that want instant-gratification. No-brainer games like CoD that doesn't require thinking, have spoilt the current generation to have everything now instead of taking on challenge in order to get better rewards.

That is why people have suggested that you might as well mail people epics. Seeing as you don't want challenge and want to steam roll everything, why even the pretense of working for it? Just click on your mail box everyday for a randomly generated epic.

I just played Deus Ex: Human Revolution. The challenge of taking down enemies while being undetected was so much fun. It also rewards you with more xp, acknowledging your effort.

Nowadays, people want everything for minimal effort, diminishing the rewards.


What a stupid comment. Good players in games like COD or BF3 are night and day different from casuals. Communication, tactics and squadmanship makes all the difference in the world and in no way is anything unlockable in that game "instant." Makes me think you've never played any of those games because unlocking anything that's a "reward" takes a generous amount of time investment and skill (if you want it quicker).
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85 Gnome Warlock
9205
02/28/2012 12:53 AMPosted by Iaylienne
Despite what you think....2 million subs lost is what Blizzard is thinking.


Yup! All 2m subs were lost entirely from difficult heroics! Yeah sure they were. There are other far bigger factors that have lead to the decline in sub growth. The age of the game, burnout, the economy here in the US and in China, and the speed with which the content has been plowed through have done far more damage to subs then "hard" heroics.

As for the OP. I don't think it was the difficulty so much as the idea to make heroics required content. THAT'S when they started this fail train. LFG only added more fuel to the fire since it's required to be on par with the average pugger who is themselves on par with my cat's IQ. I think my cat may actually be smarter then many I've had the (dis)pleasure of beign forced to run with because I have to run heroics. If say normals offered vp and gear good enough to raid with then it would have never been a big issue that heroics were hard. You'd have the usual jack-asses demanding better loot for easier difficulty still cause they somehow deserve it for their ability to pay $15 a month but that'd largely be it.
Edited by Cogspoke on 2/28/2012 9:13 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
7275
02/28/2012 08:44 AMPosted by Sysm
Also the idea that somehow blizzard made a mistake with WotlK is nonsense. By end of BC, most people would have easily cleared Karazhan then finished all heroics. Forget the higher end raids. Dungeons / Raids should be created with majority of customers in mind and the "hard mode" system works out great for that.


They did. The ICC and ToC 5 mans on top of the 30% ICC buff that we had for a good 3 months made normal mode ICC a cake-walk up to Sindragosa and LK. That is where they made the mistake and it really is Blizzard's fault but they won't admit it. Instead they will blame players who wanted harder content and divide the player base.

02/28/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Sysm
What a stupid comment. Good players in games like COD or BF3 are night and day different from casuals. Communication, tactics and squadmanship makes all the difference in the world and in no way is anything unlockable in that game "instant." Makes me think you've never played any of those games because unlocking anything that's a "reward" takes a generous amount of time investment and skill (if you want it quicker).


Oh are we comparing apples and oranges again? You are comparing the hardcore elites you play in CoD and BF3 tourneys to the average joe's who play the game just for fun. Playing it just for fun you can get to prestige mode easily in CoD I know my brother and I did it all it does is take time and a lot of it.

See you took what he said and applied it to the 1% of CoD and BF3 while he was talking about the majority of those that play the game. You sir just made a logical fallacy and for that your point is invalid and moot.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
9000
02/28/2012 09:13 AMPosted by Ashokk
What a stupid comment. Good players in games like COD or BF3 are night and day different from casuals. Communication, tactics and squadmanship makes all the difference in the world and in no way is anything unlockable in that game "instant." Makes me think you've never played any of those games because unlocking anything that's a "reward" takes a generous amount of time investment and skill (if you want it quicker).


Oh are we comparing apples and oranges again? You are comparing the hardcore elites you play in CoD and BF3 tourneys to the average joe's who play the game just for fun. Playing it just for fun you can get to prestige mode easily in CoD I know my brother and I did it all it does is take time and a lot of it.

See you took what he said and applied it to the 1% of CoD and BF3 while he was talking about the majority of those that play the game. You sir just made a logical fallacy and for that your point is invalid and moot.


I still don't see how games like CoD have bred the concept of 'Instant Gratification'...especially as you yourself recognize the need for a lot of time investment to get to prestige. A lot of time is pretty much the opposite of Instant.
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