What's wrong with "Loot Council"?

85 Human Death Knight
10455
For lack of a better term, I'll use "Loot Council," though it carries a negative connotation for most people.

Recently my guild (we do 10-man raids) decided that it would be more effective to deliberate over loot rather than have everybody roll on it, seeing as how one spec may value a trinket more than another, or somebody would get their 4 piece bonus from that piece, etc. There's no stress, and we being friends all agreed that it would be better for the raid team as a whole.

Cut to an evening in trade chat; I'm advertising our guild, and somebody whispers with the question, "How do you distribute loot?" I answer, "We don't actually roll for it, the loot goes to the person who needs it the most and/or would get the most out of it." They reply with, "Wow, Loot Council sucks! Retarded guild system."

So, what's wrong with NOT rolling on loot, and instead having the guild decide who should get a piece of gear? Isn't that what Master Looter is for in the first place, so that the ML can give loot to whoever he so pleases? It seems to me that the only people who would be bothered by "Loot Council" (as it were) are those who are more interested in purplez than in having fun with a group of friends...the reason why we all embraced this new loot distribution policy is because we're there to have fun, not gripe over pixels.

What do you guys think about "Loot Council"? Is it that much of a deterrent?
Edited by Sigtyr on 2/23/2012 9:11 AM PST
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85 Undead Death Knight
5450
Here's the problem I have with it.

Say I've been raiding for 5 months. I've always been on time, always done my job well, and got along great with the guild.

One day, we have to bring a new guildie in because someone in our raid team had to drop out. He is barely geared for the content.

Finally, something drops that I had been farming for 5 months.

But, the undergeared guildie needs it more than I do, replacing some 346 item.

Under Loot council rules, strictly speaking, I would have wasted 5 months of time just to have the item I was going for go to, imo, a less deserving player.
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If you're on the Council you either trust it or know the limits of its corruption.

If you aren't, you don't.
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85 Human Paladin
3610
If it works for the guild and everyone in it, so be it.

Personally, I would rather see tanks/healers get their gear first unless the raid is having problem beating enrage timers. Sure, dps would get the short end of the stick, but by the end of an expansion, we will be DE'ing every other item that drops off of bosses anyway.

Ideally, guild mates would discuss who would benefit most from a given loot among themselves and come to a consensus. I don't think Master Looter is for "giving loot to whoever he/she so pleases" though. It is more about preventing disputes.
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90 Tauren Druid
12670
Because it has the potential to be corrupt moreso than most other loot systems.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
8295
I would hope that you being there would be taken into account. If it isn't then I don't like that system either for that exact reason. There would have to be more factors involved. If not, just have the applicable players roll for it.
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90 Human Warlock
12620
Having any kind of loot system in a 10 man group doesn't work really well anyway.
If you run a 10man raid but have say something like 15 raiders, a system of EPGP works a lot better.

Should you ever have to pug anyone, any system you have is just going to screw someone over.
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disclaimer: I have never raided under a loot council form of loot distribtuion, so this isn't marred by any past grudge.

in my opinion, loot council is rarely 100% unbiased. When you have humans involved in deciding who gets what loot, personal grudges, preferences, likes/dislikes, are going to play a factor in it.

With a system strictly by the numbers (some form of dkp,epgp,rolling, etc), the numbers dictate who gets the loot, not a potentially biased human.

is a dkp system perfect? nope. But I'd rather have the straight up numbers determining loot distribution rather than raider X who may personally dislike raider T, and therefore be swayed against him on loot.
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85 Dwarf Shaman
5095
Here's the problem I have with it.

Say I've been raiding for 5 months. I've always been on time, always done my job well, and got along great with the guild.

One day, we have to bring a new guildie in because someone in our raid team had to drop out. He is barely geared for the content.

Finally, something drops that I had been farming for 5 months.

But, the undergeared guildie needs it more than I do, replacing some 346 item.

Under Loot council rules, strictly speaking, I would have wasted 5 months of time just to have the item I was going for go to, imo, a less deserving player.


That depends on the loot council system.

In my pally's raid group, we do loot council.

Normally on the 'council' it's me (holy paladin), resto shaman raid leader and a mage.

Our guidelines - if one of the council need the item, they don't get to help make the decision and another raid member is pulled into the discussion.

While we do look at who would get the 'larger improvement', we look at other things -- attendance, tardiness, set bonuses, if it's BiS for a certain class/spec etc.

Under my raid groups rules, the player that had been with us, every raid, for 5 months would get said item, not the newbie.
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85 Human Death Knight
10455
Here's the problem I have with it.

Under Loot council rules, strictly speaking, I would have wasted 5 months of time just to have the item I was going for go to, imo, a less deserving player.


Ah, I see...

Beyond the trade whisper, another reason I'm bringing this up is because we had the healer trinket drop from Zon'ozz, and 9 out of 10 people agreed that it should go to our holy pally, who had been in the guild longer than I have, as opposed to a resto shammy (who is no longer with us for reasons that should become apparent), who had joined just 2 weeks prior and was a general !@#$%^. Long story short, he threw a fit, which was in character.

The trinket was given to our holy pally based on tenure, a proven commitment to the guild, and a jolly attitude, versus the shaman, who was new, demanding, and gave us lip along with a sub-par performance.

The way we see it, receiving loot from a boss should be a result of many factors piling together in your favor. If the shaman had been friendly and nice, we probably would have had the two of them roll on it, given it to the winner, and just continued.
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85 Human Paladin
3610
Here's the problem I have with it.

Say I've been raiding for 5 months. I've always been on time, always done my job well, and got along great with the guild.

One day, we have to bring a new guildie in because someone in our raid team had to drop out. He is barely geared for the content.

Finally, something drops that I had been farming for 5 months.

But, the undergeared guildie needs it more than I do, replacing some 346 item.

Under Loot council rules, strictly speaking, I would have wasted 5 months of time just to have the item I was going for go to, imo, a less deserving player.


If you are in a guild that forgets your contribution and gives the loot to the new person, then maybe it isn't the looting system that is the problem. Besides, it isn't always about "who would get the biggest upgrade". Rather, it is about "who would benefit the most". So, let's say you have 3 tier pieces and this one will make your 4 piece set bonus and the set bonus is pretty big for your class. The other guy has no tier piece. Obviously, it would benefit the raid more if you have this tier piece.
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If you're on the Council you either trust it or know the limits of its corruption.

If you aren't, you don't.


This would be my big issue with it. I would have a tough time justifying joining a guild with a system that people I don't know control. If my current guild instituted it, great, because I trust them, but with people I don't know/trust? Nah.
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85 Human Paladin
5270
My guild uses that system. It works pretty well in my opinion as long as the people running it don't have biases against people. I think it helps the guild in the long run, and ensures that everyone is getting gear at the same rate, instead of having a few of your guildies with a handful of pieces, and then that one guild member that's fully geared out in the first few weeks.

There was only one instance I've seen where there was drama over it, and it was just because the guy the trinket got handed to had a 390 version of the trinket out of LFR already, and the hunter that lost it only had a 378. What the hunter refused to grasp is, that he had already received 4 tier pieces consecutively prior to this, and on top of that, he had been majorily under performing for the amount of gear he had. He of course, proceeded to throw a huge tantrum over this.

Meh.

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90 Human Warlock
11465
I never had a bad experience in either of the guilds that I raided with that used loot councils. Contrary to the opinions of others, I'll take a thinking, logical group of people over random chances with rolling or strictly by attendance or need (though those both can and should play a factor.)

No random system or variant DKP can determine how loot can best help the raid progress. A loot council may have its flaws but there's no comparison between it and the other methods if you want results.
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85 Human Paladin
3610
If you're on the Council you either trust it or know the limits of its corruption.

If you aren't, you don't.


This would be my big issue with it. I would have a tough time justifying joining a guild with a system that people I don't know control. If my current guild instituted it, great, because I trust them, but with people I don't know/trust? Nah.


You can ask them how they go about ensuring relative fairness in distributing loot BEFORE you join. Most guild recruiters tell you to whisper them for "more info", so you get to ask that question if that is a deal maker/breaker issue for you.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
02/23/2012 09:11 AMPosted by Sigtyr
What do you guys think about "Loot Council"? Is it that much of a deterrent?


Done properly loot council is a great system. It is also easily abused.

Honestly if that's the first question they asked they wouldn't be invited to our guild.


02/23/2012 09:16 AMPosted by Bladie
Under Loot council rules, strictly speaking, I would have wasted 5 months of time just to have the item I was going for go to, imo, a less deserving player.


Most guilds that use loot council take things like that into consideration. The thing about loot council is it does whats better for the raid team as a whole.
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90 Draenei Paladin
12105
02/23/2012 09:20 AMPosted by Afsaneh
Loot Council is synonymous with "We Gear Our Bros at Your Expense"


This. Loot council could maybe work as a way to resolve a dispute, but still not better than using random chance or unbiased numbers.

02/23/2012 09:29 AMPosted by Blackgoddess
Most guilds that use loot council take things like that into consideration. The thing about loot council is it does whats better for the raid team as a whole.


That's sort of the problem. Under the "what's better for the raid team" necessarily means that the guy who is replacing a 346 blue WILL get it over the guy who's replacing a 378. Because that's obviously better for the raid team. The issues arise when the guy who farmed for 5 months never sees it drop again, and the new guy leaves the guild after a couple weeks. That's what make ppl get pissed off.
Edited by Nemuraan on 2/23/2012 9:35 AM PST
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If you don't trust your offices completely Loot Council won't work. Loot Council works in guilds of mostly RL friends or people who have been playing together for years.

My last and favorite guild in EQ (Casus Belli) used loot council rules, and it was a super tight guild. My first guild in WoW used Loot Council and it was a game of whoever kissed the most butt got the loot. YMMV.
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