World of Warcraft™

Okay guys, i run more haste than mastery. I also have the 2 set bonus for the extra focus. I do pretty good with the haste"more procs, faster cobra shots" but at what point do we need to switch over and go to mastery? should we stay at 21 percent haste for the 3 cobra shots and then explosive shot. Then throw everything into crit>mastery>haste, or should i cram more haste and try to get the 4 cobra and an explosive shot and not worry about mastery at all. So my question is. At lvl, trying to pull every bit of dmg out of this class. what should we do? Get to the first haste plateau and then mastery all the way. Or. Go haste for the win?

Haste plateaus for Survival are 758 and 2265. The idea for haste is to be able to fire a set amount of CS between your CD of Explosive Shots. So once you reach the 758 mark haste value really starts to drop. Without the T13 2 piece haste has some value but once you get the 2 piece, you are able to get a ton of focus for very little effort so again haste drops in value.
Reforge into crit on everything you can, with the higher end gear you will end up with around 1200 haste, it just can't be avoided. But once you reach the hit cap (8%) and have at least 758 haste then you should reforge everything you can into Crit, then into Mastery. Survival is a Dot class and our dots don't get anything from haste but do get bonuses from Mastery. Mastery boosts magical damage, and most of our shots qualify, so your dots tick harder.

You should also use the Kill Shot Glyph instead of the Rapid fire Glyph, for basically the same reasons listed above..

Good luck

if you had gone about three posts down you could've read that exact answer minus the glyphs.

A for effort

I actually commented on that post and thats why im asking. Im just curious as to how much mastery helps over getting the extra shots in with haste. Ive tried both ways on the dummy and get about the same dps. Ive only tried stacking haste on madness though. I pull 45 to 50k steady as much as 55 depending on procs, "i cant maintain the 55k though" Im gonna try mastery this week and see what gives the biggest bonus. Im also changing my rapidfire to killshot for glyphs. Have you guys tested haste over mastery and vice versa? and if so what kinda numbers are you getting?

Alot of maintaining dps has to do with movement and target switches plus the aoe.
basically playing smart

Switch over to your pve gear too because reforging may play a decent roll in why your dps is like that

You're going to have to log into your PVE gear so I can make a clearer judgement, but as Zuul said, there are two points where haste gains special significance: 758 and 2265. After all, your first goal is to have enough focus for Explosive Shot every time it's off the CD, and nowadays, that's easy.

However, as he also said, with the T13 2pc, haste becomes less significant because CS should be used mostly to regenerate focus, not as a source of damage: if you find yourself going over 100 focus too often, then you want less haste and more mastery.

This means you shoot slower, but your elemental-based attacks (re: nearly everything) hit harder. This also includes the "Speaking of Rage" proc from Vishanka, Jaws of the Earth, as well as (and correct me if I'm wrong here), the Spellweaving buff from Kalec in the Madness encounter.

I've also heard that mastery affects spellweaving.

the DW bow proc isn't anything to write home about though. was only 1.6% of my damage on my last h ultraxion, as a 'mastery > haste' hunter.

as lame as this answer is, hit hit capped, stack crit, and after that, go with what you are more comfortable with. the questionably-higher dps you pull stacking mastery isn't worth the dps loss from being less comfortable with your rotation.

that being said, mastery > haste for madness because of the bronze dragon buff.

There is a lot of debate about the whole Haste vs Mastery thing, but if you understand the mechanics of Survival and how Haste and Mastery work there really isn't any debate. Once you hit the Haste plateau Mastery is going to provide more dps. You have to spend about 1000 points in haste to move your Cobra Shots from 1.6 to 1.5 and you will not see any increase in dps, it may as you say "Feel Better" but reality is that the extra 1000 points you spent are completely wasted. People got so used to playing MM that they are stuck on the whole haste thing..

I think a lot of the problem stems from people feeling that you have to shoot faster to do more dps.. Now this may have been more of a true statement in the Firelands with a MM build, but it just isn't reality in DS with Survival. Our shots are magical not physical damage like MM, so the premise that you must fire faster to do more dps doesn't work.

Im in my pve gear now if you guys wanna look, Thanks :)

02/22/2012 11:21 AMPosted by Zúul

There is a lot of debate about the whole Haste vs Mastery thing, but if you understand the mechanics of Survival and how Haste and Mastery work there really isn't any debate. Once you hit the Haste plateau Mastery is going to provide more dps. You have to spend about 1000 points in haste to move your Cobra Shots from 1.6 to 1.5 and you will not see any increase in dps, it may as you say "Feel Better" but reality is that the extra 1000 points you spent are completely wasted.

the 1000 points isn't wasted, its going into haste :)

true, that while haste between plateaus only gives faster autoshots, slightly more focus regen (and occasionally more shots between explosives while under a big haste effect), mastery, while affecting a lot of our shots, doesn't affect them all that much...

02/22/2012 11:53 AMPosted by Bredge

There is a lot of debate about the whole Haste vs Mastery thing, but if you understand the mechanics of Survival and how Haste and Mastery work there really isn't any debate. Once you hit the Haste plateau Mastery is going to provide more dps. You have to spend about 1000 points in haste to move your Cobra Shots from 1.6 to 1.5 and you will not see any increase in dps, it may as you say "Feel Better" but reality is that the extra 1000 points you spent are completely wasted.

the 1000 points isn't wasted, its going into haste :)

true, that while haste between plateaus only gives faster autoshots, slightly more focus regen (and occasionally more shots between explosives while under a big haste effect), mastery, while affecting a lot of our shots, doesn't affect them all that much...

So you are saying that extra 22% damage that your Explosive shot (Fire Damage) plus the 2seconds of dot, your Black Arrow (Shadow Damage) Dot, Explosive Trap (Fire Damage), Serpent Sting (Nature Damage) dot, Arcane Shot (Arcane Damage), and less we forget Cobra shot (Nature Damage).. That having a 22% boost to the damage of all those shots, does nothing for you in comparison to Haste? By the way this is based upon YOUR current Mastery... I invite you to reforge out of all of that mastery for your preferred haste and report back..

02/22/2012 12:28 PMPosted by Zúul

the 1000 points isn't wasted, its going into haste :)

true, that while haste between plateaus only gives faster autoshots, slightly more focus regen (and occasionally more shots between explosives while under a big haste effect), mastery, while affecting a lot of our shots, doesn't affect them all that much...

So you are saying that extra 22% damage that your Explosive shot (Fire Damage) plus the 2seconds of dot, your Black Arrow (Shadow Damage) Dot, Explosive Trap (Fire Damage), Serpent Sting (Nature Damage) dot, Arcane Shot (Arcane Damage), and less we forget Cobra shot (Nature Damage).. That having a 22% boost to the damage of all those shots, does nothing for you in comparison to Haste? By the way this is based upon YOUR current Mastery... I invite you to reforge out of all of that mastery for your preferred haste and report back..

where are you getting 22%? my 1088 mastery rating gives me 6% magical damage.

Bredge, you start with 8%. Each point of Mastery (fractions count) adds another 1%, giving you a 14% bonus to elemental damage. I'm not sure how Zuul arrived at 22%, but still, there's always that extra 10% from Noxious Stings (if it's not bugged anymore).

I find it somewhat interesting that you're arguing for reforging haste over mastery in this thread by saying that "mastery, while affecting a lot of our shots, doesn't affect them all that much", yet in another, you agonize over losing a single tick on LNL proc'd ES shots.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4079871830

If losing a single tick is so important that you need to download an addon that tracks it down to the exact second, wouldn't you want to make sure that single tick caused as much damage as possible? Forgive me for saying so, but this doesn't seem consistent.

[edit] Whoops, wrong number, needed to clarify.

Bredge, you start with 8%. Each point of Mastery (fractions count) adds another 1%, giving you a 14% bonus to elemental damage. I'm not sure how Zuul arrived at 22%, but still, there's always that extra 10% from Noxious Stings (if it's not bugged anymore).

I find it somewhat interesting that you're arguing for reforging haste over mastery in this thread by saying that "mastery, while affecting a lot of our shots, doesn't affect them all that much", yet in another, you agonize over losing a single tick on LNL proc'd ES shots.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4079871830

If losing a single tick is so important that you need to download an addon that tracks it down to the exact second, wouldn't you want to make sure that single tick caused as much damage as possible? Forgive me for saying so, but this doesn't seem consistent.

[edit] Whoops, wrong number, needed to clarify.

I don't have 14 points of mastery from gear, though. "Mastery rating of 1088 adds 6.07 Mastery" losing 14% for 1000 rating would be fairly big. losing 6% for 1000 rating on the other hand... eh...


Also there is no inconsistency.

Its debatable whether you lose dps from reforging mastery into haste.

it is not debatable whether you lose dps from losing ticks on explosive shot.

On a patchwork style fight, haste and mastery are practically equivalent in terms of DPS gain. However, there are multiple mechanics in DS which favor mastery. There is not a single mechanic that favors haste.

For mastery it's not about "what it affects" it's more about "how much it affects it". The amount of elemental damage gained per point of mastery is fairly lackluster.

It's debatable, but if you're going 1,000 points over on haste with no real discernible difference between one value or the other, wouldn't that be considered a waste, considering that those points may be diverted into something that doesn't have any theoretical breakpoints?

As you've argued, more haste means more auto shots (nothing wrong with that, except that SV doesn't have Wild Quiver to back it up), faster focus regen (but aren't we drowning in focus already?), faster pet attacks (for what it's worth), and a slightly faster CS cast, but you quickly hand wave away mastery, despite it positively influencing nearly every single SV talent.

I'll not argue against attacking faster, but too much haste is like too much jelly on a PB&J: sooner or later, it drips off the sandwich and onto the floor.

It's debatable, but if you're going 1,000 points over on haste with no real discernible difference between one value or the other, wouldn't that be considered a waste, considering that those points may be diverted into something that doesn't have any theoretical breakpoints?

As you've argued, more haste means more auto shots (nothing wrong with that, except that SV doesn't have Wild Quiver to back it up), faster focus regen (but aren't we drowning in focus already?), faster pet attacks (for what it's worth), and a slightly faster CS cast, but you quickly hand wave away mastery, despite it positively influencing nearly every single SV talent.

I'll not argue against attacking faster, but too much haste is like too much jelly on a PB&J: sooner or later, it drips off the sandwich and onto the floor.

my point was that haste and mastery for survival are, for all intensive porpoises, equal on all DS fights but one, and if you are at the point where you are far from heroic madness, but normal madness is trivial, its perfectly reasonable to stack haste after crit if thats what you prefer.

and like aertea pointed out, its not 'how many spells' mastery affects, its 'how much' it affects them.

sure, when you compare 70% of our damage to the minor benefits haste between plateaus gives us, it seems like a no-brainer, but when its between 1000 haste rating and 4.2% damage (thats 1000 mastery, if magic damage was exactly 70% of our total damage), the choice becomes less clear.

also, while marks drowns in focus survival doesn't have that problem as far as i've seen.

02/22/2012 01:21 PMPosted by Bredge

I don't have 14 points of mastery from gear, though. "Mastery rating of 1088 adds 6.07 Mastery" losing 14% for 1000 rating would be fairly big. losing 6% for 1000 rating on the other hand... eh...

My bad on the math, but you do have 14 points of mastery 8% to start with plus the 6.07% you have gained from gear giving you the 14% that you said would be a fairly big loss.

02/22/2012 01:50 PMPosted by Bredge

my point was that haste and mastery for survival are, for all intensive porpoises, equal on all DS fights but one, and if you are at the point where you are far from heroic madness, but normal madness is trivial, its perfectly reasonable to stack haste after crit if thats what you prefer.

And this is not true either, they are not equal but this is getting us nowhere, you continue to do what you do and what you believe..

I am out.. Good luck

02/22/2012 01:50 PMPosted by Bredge

for all intensive porpoises

best . . . quote . . . ever