The DS Nerf, an honest question to players.

90 Human Warrior
16790
I'm the DS guy in normal who is 2/8 prenerf. These nerfs allow me to experience content and get gear I would otherwise be unable to obtain for [various reasons]. That is why I am in support of this.


At least you're honest.

If blizzard could trot out new content every 4 months their would be no need for nerfs. Even if they where only trotting out content every 6 months then a single nerf ala firelands 3 or 4 months in would be sufficient. The root cause is because if they don't nerf then a lot of guilds are going to spend the last 2-4 months of the teir with zero progression because they killed almost everything they are capable of in the first 4 months.

I don't care how many exactly kill heroic dw. But it would be nice to kill at least one more boss over the next 6 months. The nerfs allow that.


Call me old fashioned, but what exactly is stopping you from getting better? If you're stuck on a boss are you honestly telling me that everyone is giving it their all and you're still failing? You've had players looking over your logs and finding that you did everything flawlessly? You have every buff, everyone is double potting?

When did players stop looking at how to get better after wiping on a boss and started just giving up and waiting for nerfs?
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85 Human Warrior
2890
I'm the DS guy in normal who is 2/8 prenerf. These nerfs allow me to experience content and get gear I would otherwise be unable to obtain for [various reasons]. That is why I am in support of this.


02/23/2012 04:25 PMPosted by Turagent
At least you're honest.


That comment was made from a perspective of a person that was made up in my head. I haven't heard anyone actually saying that, and that imaginary person seems to be the only one that benefits.
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85 Human Warrior
2890
But what does the nerf accomplish? You still can't ignore mechanics. It just lets the players who do 36k dps instead of 40k dps get there.Every player killing the fight at 10% is still doing the mechanics. And that's really what fights are, right? A serious of coordinated mechanics?The nerfs force encounters to be easier because they're more forgiving. If a boss is doing 5% less damage, you can mess up a bit more, heal a little less, cut healers, add dps, etc. And so on, and so on.You have to do mechanics, but they become much easier to do as time progresses.


Well for starters, I appreciate the honesty and I can even appreciate the sentiment.But you have realize that eventually "everyone" will be able kill pretty much any given boss. A hunter just solo'd Algalon. You have DK's soloing all of ICC. And and on on. The point being is that nothing lasts forever. No one seems to care we "overpower" content eventually. So the beef isn't a matter of kind, it's a matter of degree. It's not a concern about if, it's a concern about when.So, on your side of the fence, you think that now is far too soon... it muddles your achievement. But that's forgetting one thing... the raids themselves are designed with the fact that they will get the nerf in mind. The are tuned in a manner to be incredible restrictive at first and then opened up as time goes on. If Blizzard knew it would never nerf them they would have to either just make them easier to begin with or have content they worked their butts off to be not completed by 99% of the player base.Well, at some corporate level, when you are losing 1.8million subs per year, the option of doing the vast majority of gameplay tweaks aimed at something next to no one completes, doesn't seem like good allocation of resources. So this is their compromise. This is how they can allow the really good guilds to prove their manhood and then open it up to average raiders after that.


I really just wanted to open this up for discussion as to what each individual would like. The vague-ness of my statements is just to open up as much opinion as possible without getting trolled. I do understand the fact that all content will be completed eventually...even by solo players. I do understand the idea that from a business perspective it doesn't seem to make sense to complete an area of the game only 1% of the population will see.

My question is to open up those ideas and look at them a little closer. Taking a look at the business end idea, in theory the idea would be the more people that get to experience end game content the more people that will stick around with their subs? It's easy to say thats true but I'm not sure it is honestly. I think there is a balance somewhere in terms of how many people you would want experiencing the content and how many you would want on the outside looking in because if everyone is doing it or has done it the illusion of challenge is gone. The end goal is for everyone to enjoy themselves and have fun with the product, and therefore keep on paying that monthly fee.....of course.

But in terms of this specific circumstance what do you think would result in the largest number of new or returning subscribers? Whats better for you? And what kind of player are you that determines your opinion?
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90 Human Warrior
16790
02/23/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Higelac
My question is to open up those ideas and look at them a little closer. Taking a look at the business end idea, in theory the idea would be the more people that get to experience end game content the more people that will stick around with their subs? It's easy to say thats true but I'm not sure it is honestly. I think there is a balance somewhere in terms of how many people you would want experiencing the content and how many you would want on the outside looking in because if everyone is doing it or has done it the illusion of challenge is gone. The end goal is for everyone to enjoy themselves and have fun with the product, and therefore keep on paying that monthly fee.....of course.


If you have too many people finishing the content they get bored and quit. At least during BC where if you beat Kara, there was a whole new raid waiting for you with new bosses, mechanics, gear, trash, etc. Now Blizzard is relying on simply added difficulty to hold subs and it doesn't appear to be working.

Players are finishing LFR, looking at Normal, and the "unique and epic" experience of fighting Morchok II and unsubbing. The DS nerfs are aimed solely at drawing players into the next difficulty level by making it more accessible, but the loot is not enough draw. Not many people are going to keep paying so that they could keep progress to the end of a raid that they've already finished on Easy mode, they'll just wait until the next patch and complete LFR there.

WoW is a Skinner Box where the lever always gives out food when pressed. There's no reason to keep playing because you know that when Mists comes out, you'll be able to see every boss and every raid with zero effort on your part without having to commit to a longer subscription.

It's unsustainable. They won't have the resources to keep raid content coming on one month of subscription profit. Either they scrap the 3 difficulties and put the money to better use, or they find a better way to incentivize players to move from one to the other to keep the content relevant, but extolling the virtues that 99% of the Raid is available on Easy doesn't help that last part.
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90 Human Paladin
12570
02/23/2012 04:58 PMPosted by Turagent
If you have too many people finishing the content they get bored and quit.


And if you have too many people feeling blocked they get bored and quit.

Judging by how many guilds have cleared the heroic raid content, the potentially blocked people are probably vastly more numerous.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13005
I think it's pretty meaningless to compare it to the entire population of 85's, since some people don't want to raid no matter how easy they become. I think it's reasonable for at least 70-75% of characters who down N Morchok, and who are active (have raided within the past 2 weeks), to kill N Madness before MOP comes out. I think that at least 25-30% of active characters who kill H Morchok should be able to kill H Madness before MOP is released. Since heroics are supposed to be more difficult, I think it's reasonable for them to have a lower completion rate than Normals.
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85 Goblin Priest
6265
What I'm finding funny is that if you look, a lot of the people complaining about the nerfs don't even have much if anything done on heroic yet. Morchok doesn't count. Kthnx.

BTW... the nerfs are so very casual 1 night a week guilds can get the normal content down. The nerf doesn't mean everyone can stand still in heroic and tank in spank while they ignore mechanics.

If you want to feel super elite.... turn the nerf off. hurrrrrrrrrr
Edited by Gallowz on 2/23/2012 9:18 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8800
What I'm finding funny is that if you look, a lot of the people complaining about the nerfs don't even have much if anything done on heroic yet. Morchok doesn't count. Kthnx.


Hi.
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90 Orc Warrior
14575
02/23/2012 09:50 AMPosted by Higelac
If that is the case...then in a perfect world is the goal to have 100% of players completing the raid on heroic?


No. In a perfect world 100% of players complete Normal.

Heroic is meant to be the hardcore mode. Or has everyone (including Blizzard) already forgotten that?

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90 Human Rogue
19585
02/23/2012 01:29 PMPosted by Firestyle
Players are adequately equipped to handle these mechanics, but not every player can eek out the same numbers from every class. So, Player A and player B may may both do the same mechanic, but player A's reaction time and HPS to deal with a damage mechnic is far faster than player B's.


So basically you are saying if one person is worse / slower / doesn't know how to gear/gem/play the game, they should be as good as player A, because blizzard should design the game around being average ? lol..

Raids need to be far less about whether a player does 40k or 30k dps, and way more about dealing with mechanics properly.


Think about rag, (minus the dps check prenerf) there was a reason hardly any guilds could get it and most still cant even with it smashed into the ground mechanics wise(p4lol), even with the encounter as it is most of the wow population still cant do this because 'the mechanics are too hard'

sinestra one of the hardest mechanic wise encounter and you still have hardly any of the population having completed it.

If they made raids around mechanics even less of the playerbase would complete the encounters because most players are terrible and 99% don't even try to get better.



This being said i don't really care about the DS nerfs as we will start selling clears soon and it will just make that easier and easier.
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85 Undead Warlock
4785
MFW: http://i40.tinypic.com/a5fh3.jpg
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90 Tauren Druid
15945
My opinion doesn't matter.

With the 10% nerf being so quick to roll out, it's clear that for Blizz, this tier will only be a success if players in 378-384 gear can trade chat pug and clear 8/8 heroic DS, every week, no deaths. Anything less and it's a failure.

It's unfortunate that Blizz wants to destroy all challenge in the game, just to cater to the whiny forum base. They keep taking a gamble by not sticking to their guns like they tried to in T11. Only because of a promise for a free game did they mostly break even with the number of subscribers in Cata. Only time will tell if making the game as hard as farmville will pay off in the long run for them or not.
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80 Blood Elf Hunter
0
02/23/2012 05:05 PMPosted by Osmeric
If you have too many people finishing the content they get bored and quit.


And if you have too many people feeling blocked they get bored and quit.

Judging by how many guilds have cleared the heroic raid content, the potentially blocked people are probably vastly more numerous.


Yet in BC far far far more people were blocked by a wall and blizzard was getting new subs hand over fist and the game was growing exponentially.

The problem is there is nothing to do outside of raiding that takes up peoples time. Farming consumables isn't a lot of time at all, dailies are awful, zero rep grinds, zero profession grinds, questing is far easier/faster than in BC, heroics were more difficult so people didn't mind doing them throughout the expansion. There were multiple tiers of raiding that were always current because 5 mans didn't give you gear that was light years ahead of them in quality.

Daily heroic was a pretty good idea as well.

There are far more problems/reasons for people quitting than there is a block on raiding. Honestly i'd say thats one of the last things people are !@#$%ing about when they fill in the form.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10550
02/23/2012 04:05 PMPosted by Grimmrage
the raids themselves are designed with the fact that they will get the nerf in mind. The are tuned in a manner to be incredible restrictive at first and then opened up as time goes on


I don't think anyone would disagree with this. Nerfs are inevitable. For me, the speed at which the nerf came was disagreeable, not the actual nerf itself.
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90 Human Paladin
12570
Lets consider the following before answering:
- The goal of these nerfs seems to be increasing the amount of players that get to experience encounters across both difficulties.
- If that is the case...then in a perfect world is the goal to have 100% of players completing the raid on heroic?


I don't believe either of these is true.

The goal of the nerfs is not to get people to see content, but to keep them moving. Players whose progression stops for long enough tend to quit. So, Blizzard wants them to keep creeping upward. This does NOT mean Blizzard wants them to reach the top. After all, when they reach the top, their progression is pretty much over too.
Edited by Osmeric on 2/24/2012 5:04 AM PST
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85 Goblin Priest
6265
10 percent nerf doesn't mean victory in heroics. Simple as that. Please stop crying now. Stow the tears and move on.

I dare anyone to try and say that 10 percent means guaranteed one shot clear of the entire raid on heroic. I'm going spray laugh in your face after eating Doritos because you've forced the logic centers of your brain to function incorrectly.
Edited by Gallowz on 2/24/2012 8:04 AM PST
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