Casual's Money vs Quality game

100 Night Elf Warrior
11375
Hey all,

First off, I am sure this may start a debate but I was looking at our recently killed H ragnaros video (Better late than never), just before going to raid into Dragon soul, and it made me realised how much of an amazing fight H ragnaros is.

The point I am trying to say is that Blizzard is saying that they are putting too much money into content that only the hardcores (whatever that means) will see, but looking at stuff such as the LFR, it is easy to realise that these players who have very limited schedule to play do not need a lot of developpment spending to be happy.

Look at all the fights in LFR, they are litteraly all tank n Spank, you log in, DPS get loot, and if it makes you happy to play the game, then good for you but you can litterally attach any skins to any of the models in Dragon soul LFR and put it as a new fight.

We honestly need to see more fights like Heroic Ragnaros, or even Alystrazor where the mechanics are being extremely creative and the heroic modes arent just about mix/min the DPS and Healing, but how to perfect an encounter, increasing your DPS while dancing in the flames. This is what WoW is all about, amazing great raid encounters.

Finally, the question remains, yes Casual are much much more bigger audience, but since when does Blizzard wants to lower the quality of their content that is at some points absolutely amazing (Tier 11, Hrag, Halys) to attract the crowd of Angry birds.

Get back to your usual Mojo of making a great game that gets popular because it is a great game instead of making it a popular game directly by passing all quality standards.

- Narf
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85 Human Paladin
11570
my little gnome priest is 68 and just healed her way through the 'all BC dungeons' achievement.

nothing was noteworthy until arcatraz, black morass and magister's terrace.

lt's just say Black Morass was a small problem when tanks cant pick up more than the big guy. and MGT...many wipes in there. it's almost infuriating seeing BC dungeons vs wolk/cata dungeons.

and you know what? 56minutes queue for MGT (because at 68 you can queue UK) was worth it. I think I'll cap my priest at 70.
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85 Orc Shaman
2810
Game design now centers around "acceptable completion rates" rather than making something interesting and seeing what people do with it so get ready for another few years of sinfully terrible content balanced around LFR.
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85 Human Warrior
6435
Yes because LFR was not a lot of development time.

They overhauled the whole looting system. They implemented a new queuing system to account for 25 players. They changed the mechanics of some of the fights. Yes no development time at all. In the future it will be less thereby allowing them to focus more on the normal and heroic versions but the first iteration would have been a massive undertaking.

Yes the heroic versions get more development / testing time because they have more mechanics in the fights but saying that something like LFR takes very little development time is stupid.

Personally I love the fact that they decided to make 3 raid tiers instead of two and will continue down this path. It allows more players to enjoy the game and keeps the money rolling into Blizzard to continue to do what they do best which is make the best games on the market.
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85 Human Paladin
11570
sooo if more players are enjoying the game why is population going down?

we're at same playerbase numbers we were in early BC. and dropping.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png
Edited by Robokapp on 2/29/2012 7:48 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Warrior
11375
02/29/2012 07:38 AMPosted by Fennypence
Game design now centers around "acceptable completion rates" rather than making something interesting and seeing what people do with it so get ready for another few years of sinfully terrible content balanced around LFR.


I just do not understand this mentality... Sincerely, I wish to be more open minded about this and understand your point of view, but how is going into the LFR, and just pressing your sequence of DPS any kind of fun ? It might be cool once to see the encounters,

But just for the sake of the argument here, go watch a video of Heroic Rag, and tell me you do not find this amazingly fun to do with all the movements, the strategy and the execution required ?
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85 Human Paladin
11570
Narph I think you're arguing with a person who's agreeing with you...
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85 Orc Shaman
2810
02/29/2012 07:49 AMPosted by Narph
Game design now centers around "acceptable completion rates" rather than making something interesting and seeing what people do with it so get ready for another few years of sinfully terrible content balanced around LFR.


I just do not understand this mentality... Sincerely, I wish to be more open minded about this and understand your point of view, but how is going into the LFR, and just pressing your sequence of DPS any kind of fun ? It might be cool once to see the encounters,

But just for the sake of the argument here, go watch a video of Heroic Rag, and tell me you do not find this amazingly fun to do with all the movements, the strategy and the execution required ?


I'm thinking you're totally misunderstanding my post which was tongue-in-cheek. I'm agreeing with you.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
11375
I just refuse to beleive that Blizzard spent 7 years building the best available raiding experience on the market with a quality that no one can surpass without investing millions into a game to grab the passionate raiders from WoW to something else.

And for some reason, Blizzard is pushing them away by cutting in the quality more and more? I left In Wrath of the Lich King after Naxxramas 2.0 since I just cleared it in a single day. And I know the developpers are gamers just like us..They want to build a game to love to play with as well. I cannot understand how they would feel any satisfaction by being allowed into a instance, pressing your sequence to get 15k DPS and getting a chance at your loot?

This is litterally gambling, they are trying to attract the crowd that would be spending pennies into the gambling machines in the bar at the corner of the street, you just go in the instance, press a few buttons, and you have a chance at winning a loot.

PS : Sorry about the lost in translation argument here, this is not my native language.
Edited by Narph on 2/29/2012 7:58 AM PST
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85 Dwarf Warrior
13030
If they're putting too much money into raids now, then Karazhan must be the reason for the global economic crisis.

Content that is catered to the top end players becomes viable content for mid and low end players over time, imagine if tier 11 wasn't made irrelevant the day molten front and FL came out, or imagine if Firelands wasn't irrelevant the second 5 mans replaced it.

TBC's model in which the hard content for the top .5% became the casual playground half a tier later worked well, irrelevating content and forcing Blizzard to churn it out faster with less talented staff (Project Titan and MoP are why DS sucked).


FL + DS combined was barely enough to be 1 tier, the fact they made up 2/3rds of an expansion is why the raid crowds leaving in droves, the quality of the cut/paste 1 room raids is just disgusting.
Edited by Asane on 2/29/2012 8:00 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
11570
atunments are a simple way to not irrelevate content.
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90 Human Death Knight
12455
02/29/2012 07:21 AMPosted by Narph
Finally, the question remains, yes Casual are much much more bigger audience, but since when does Blizzard wants to lower the quality of their content that is at some points absolutely amazing (Tier 11, Hrag, Halys) to attract the crowd of Angry birds

If you were a movie studio, which would you rather have make:

"The Artist" - Critically acclaimed. Won lots of academy awards. Not many people saw it. Mostly appealed to people really into movies. Grossed $28M dollars.

"Transformers" - Pretty well regarded. Not really award-winning. Lots of people saw and enjoyed it. Widespread appeal. Grossed $700M dollars.

I don't pose this as if it there is a "right choice." It is just a choice.
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85 Dwarf Warrior
13030
02/29/2012 08:04 AMPosted by Robokapp
atunments are a simple way to not irrelevate content.


Depends on the attunement, I do think there should be a progression enforced so people don't go from 5 mans to tier 3 of the expansion instantly. LFR offers a chance of this, where you can require killing raid 1->2->3 in at least LFR in order to get to the final tier, allowing you to either do LFR, or form up a 10m to do nerfed raids, so that you need to have a little bit of effort put into the character to kill the final boss....
The rush to go from level 1 to level 85 + kill Deathwing in this game is shorter than some Nintendo Era RPGs now, and this is kind of unacceptable.

If you were a movie studio, which would you rather have make:

"The Artist" - Critically acclaimed. Won lots of academy awards. Not many people saw it. Mostly appealed to people really into movies. Grossed $28M dollars.

"Transformers" - Pretty well regarded. Not really award-winning. Lots of people saw and enjoyed it. Widespread appeal. Grossed $700M dollars.

I don't pose this as if it there is a "right choice." It is just a choice.


What does any of this have to do with World of Warcraft? WoW won most of it's acclaims and it's awards before they took their main raid design team off to work on Project Titan.

Movies only need to sucker in an audience to see the movie once to be a box office hit, WoW needs to evolve and retain their audience for months/years in order to keep their business model satisfied.
Edited by Asane on 2/29/2012 8:09 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
11570
movies don't have recrring subscriptions.

personally i have payed for 70 months of subscription counting until the end of my annual pass and I bought 3 expansions.

how many casuals put together add up to 70 months of subscription?
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85 Dwarf Warrior
13030
02/29/2012 08:07 AMPosted by Robokapp
how many casuals put together add up to 70 months of subscription?



2, 1 to loot the content, and 1 to post on the forums.

edit, insomina and trying to be funny don't go together.
Edited by Asane on 2/29/2012 8:10 AM PST
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85 Orc Shaman
2810
The problem is basically that Blizzard is trying to make an MMO something it isn't and never has been.

Instead of going out into the world and finding dungeons you push a button and a dungeon appears.

Instead of going out, making social connections and finding a group of people to raid with you push a button and a raid appears.

What you see in effect is a Sherman's March through World of Warcraft with two goals:

1) Justify the money spent on development via completion rates to prove just how much people use the product.

2) Get people who don't like MMOs to play World of Warcraft.

They're turning World of Warcraft into an MMO for people who might not play MMOs, or don't like MMOs.

They're doing the exact same thing with LFR. LFR is a raid for people who don't want to raid.

That's pretty much the problem.
Edited by Fennypence on 2/29/2012 8:11 AM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
12455
02/29/2012 08:07 AMPosted by Asane
What does any of this have to do with World of Warcraft?

Narph's accusation is that Blizzard is "lowering the quality of its content" to "attract the crowd of Angry Birds" because they are a "much bigger audience." Implicit in this arguement is the notion that "mass market entertainment sucks."

I am agreeing that creators of entertainment often need to choose their audience. One can go for the "mass market" or one can go for the "sophisticated niche." You can, however, have "quality mass market entertainment" (or, for that matter, "crappy niche games" - hi Vanguard")

I would posit that Blizzard is knowingly targeting the "mass market" more than the "high end raiding base." Where Narph and I part ways is the notion that this means they must be sacrificing "quality."

You can make a "high quality mass market game." I would say, in fact, Blizzard has done just that in World of Warcraft.

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90 Human Death Knight
12455
02/29/2012 08:10 AMPosted by Fennypence
The problem is basically that Blizzard is trying to make an MMO something it isn't and never has been.

Successful?

Prior to World of Warcraft, 200,000 people was considered "massive," and possibly the outer limits of the audience for MMOs. Nowadays, 200,000 accounts gets you closed.

Blizzard DID make MMO's something different. That battle has been fought and won.
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85 Orc Shaman
2810
02/29/2012 08:17 AMPosted by Waste
The problem is basically that Blizzard is trying to make an MMO something it isn't and never has been.

Successful?

Prior to World of Warcraft, 200,000 people was considered "massive," and possibly the outer limits of the audience for MMOs. Nowadays, 200,000 accounts gets you closed.

Blizzard DID make MMO's something different. That battle has been fought and won.
\

Spoken with the truest ignorance /yawn
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90 Human Death Knight
12455
How many casuals put together add up to 70 months of subscription?

Neither of us can say with certainty, but you can be damn sure Blizzard knows. And, based on their behavior, I bet it isn't a very high number.

Anecdotally: Compared to most people on this forum (and the standards they set), I am decidedly casual. I've been subscribed since launch, so that's about 90 months. I don't know if I'm typically or not, but don't be so sure you have to be a hardcore raider to stick around a long time.
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