Warlord Zon'ozz

90 Undead Priest
9050
Hello everyone!

My guild isn't very big on raiding, and yes, laugh if you will, we can't seem to be able to get past Warlord Zon'ozz. We have been up to Ultraxion, but we haven't made it there since maybe 3 weeks ago.

We keep wiping and i really don't understand why. I don't have logs...since i'm pretty sure my guild doesn't use those, but we usually roll a holy priest, disc priest, resto druid/holy pally (depending which one of them shows up for raid)

Usually we take 2 melee, and have a healer stand up in front (usually me) to heal the tank. I don't know if its me, but it seems like i can't keep him and the melee dps up. Also, we are having serious trouble keeping everyone alive during the black..stuff part.

We try and rotate CDS, I go first with PW:B, Our holy priest uses Divine Hymn, then traq. We rotate them during phases.

We all are able to pull up to 14-19k hps during the fight. I'm not sure if it's just the healers, or our tank, or dps is doing something wrong.

I would really like to have some feedback..I am sorry that i was not able to provide logs. :(
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
9050
Are you handling dispels quickly and efficiently? (easiest and most organized way I've found is putting one healer on dispels for one group and another healer for the other group)

Are you all moving out of the way of the ball when Zon'ozz needs to absorb it?

Is the boss faced away from the raid?

Is everyone stacked during the black phase?

Do you have enough people absorbing the ball in the melee group? You might need to add one more person.


The problem we had when we first did the fight was we were a bit ambitious in the bounces. It may just be that you need to reduce how many times you bounce the orb.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Priest
9050
02/18/2012 07:57 PMPosted by Janaire
Are you handling dispels quickly and efficiently? (easiest and most organized way I've found is putting one healer on dispels for one group and another healer for the other group)


We actually don't..I dispel for the melee around me, and the other healers are handling the range, we dispel at about 75%+



Are you all moving out of the way of the ball when Zon'ozz needs to absorb it?

Is the boss faced away from the raid?


We move at about 4stacks, and our tank is facing him towards the raid before he starts to make the ball, and then he turns the boss around.

Is everyone stacked during the black phase?

Do you have enough people absorbing the ball in the melee group? You might need to add one more person.


The problem we had when we first did the fight was we were a bit ambitious in the bounces. It may just be that you need to reduce how many times you bounce the orb.


We have 3 people (not counting the tank) A dk, ret pally, and I taking the melee ball hits. Should we have a range stand in the melee range to absorb the ball?
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
9050
02/18/2012 08:10 PMPosted by Vallentha
We have 3 people (not counting the tank) A dk, ret pally, and I taking the melee ball hits. Should we have a range stand in the melee range to absorb the ball?

It would probably help out if you did that, especially considering you're getting both melee and the tank. The other healers should be helping get the melee group up when they can though, so it should never be your sole responsibility. Having a healer move would probably be the most helpful though. Tanks aren't always within range of the ranged healer(s) for that fight.

Your other option is moving ranged forward a little bit. The damage from the ball will encompass both groups then, just be careful that you don't move so far forward that it doesn't register you.


Without logs, I can't say what the exact problem is, but not having enough soakers would certainly contribute to any difficulties.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Priest
9050
02/18/2012 08:54 PMPosted by Janaire
We have 3 people (not counting the tank) A dk, ret pally, and I taking the melee ball hits. Should we have a range stand in the melee range to absorb the ball?

It would probably help out if you did that, especially considering you're getting both melee and the tank. The other healers should be helping get the melee group up when they can though, so it should never be your sole responsibility. Having a healer move would probably be the most helpful though. Tanks aren't always within range of the ranged healer(s) for that fight.

Your other option is moving ranged forward a little bit. The damage from the ball will encompass both groups then, just be careful that you don't move so far forward that it doesn't register you.


Without logs, I can't say what the exact problem is, but not having enough soakers would certainly contribute to any difficulties.


I really do thank you for the advice! I spoke to my RL about trying to move the groups closer together, or maybe moving our resto druid/ holy pally up to melee.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Priest
13920
In my opinion dispelling efficiently is the most important thing you can do to reduce raid damage. Usually we each take a group, and dispel immediately as long as they are over 30% hp. If you are worried about their hp dropping too low for an incoming ball bounce, pw:shield then dispel.

While hps isn't everything, it does tell a lot, and those numbers look fine for 3 healing the fight. I don't know why you guys would be having trouble in the black phase, but keep in mind most raid cooldowns have a 3 minute cooldown, and going 5 stacks per ball generally ends up with black phases nearly exactly 1.5 minutes apart, so don't be afraid to go: DH + Barrier, then Tranq + personals, then DH + Barrier again.

Usually what my guild does is two heal it, blow barrier as well as personals for the first black phase and then heroism and aura mastery for the second black phase, and if we get to a third black phase barrier and personals will be ready again. A DK with his 4 set is also invaluable for black phases, seeing as DKs are already the best tank for dealing with the psychic drains.

What kind of tank do you have? Is he popping cooldowns for the second psychic drain (should happen right around the 5th ball bounce)? If he isn't, healing is going to be a lot harder than it should be, which could be leading to some of your troubles.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Priest
9050
02/18/2012 09:32 PMPosted by Röth
If there's 2 melee you can move 2 healers up to the melee which means the tank will get more heals.


So we want the groups to be more equal as well? We usually only have 3 standing up in the front and 6 in the back, and thank you for the advice! I'm going to bring this all up with my RL.

In my opinion dispelling efficiently is the most important thing you can do to reduce raid damage. Usually we each take a group, and dispel immediately as long as they are over 30% hp. If you are worried about their hp dropping too low for an incoming ball bounce, pw:shield then dispel.

While hps isn't everything, it does tell a lot, and those numbers look fine for 3 healing the fight. I don't know why you guys would be having trouble in the black phase, but keep in mind most raid cooldowns have a 3 minute cooldown, and going 5 stacks per ball generally ends up with black phases nearly exactly 1.5 minutes apart, so don't be afraid to go: DH + Barrier, then Tranq + personals, then DH + Barrier again.

Usually what my guild does is two heal it, blow barrier as well as personals for the first black phase and then heroism and aura mastery for the second black phase, and if we get to a third black phase barrier and personals will be ready again. A DK with his 4 set is also invaluable for black phases, seeing as DKs are already the best tank for dealing with the psychic drains.

What kind of tank do you have? Is he popping cooldowns for the second psychic drain (should happen right around the 5th ball bounce)? If he isn't, healing is going to be a lot harder than it should be, which could be leading to some of your troubles.


Are we waiting to long to dispel the debuff? Our RL keeps telling us to wait for them to have 75% or more health before dispelling the debuff.

We also have a paladin tank (our raid leader) tanking the fight. I usually don't see him popping his CDS until his health starts to get low, so at random times.
Reply Quote
85 Troll Druid
10420
02/19/2012 07:55 AMPosted by Vallentha
So we want the groups to be more equal as well? We usually only have 3 standing up in the front and 6 in the back, and thank you for the advice! I'm going to bring this all up with my RL.


Considering the damage is split evenly between everybody the ball hits, it would be in your best interest to always keep the groups even.

02/19/2012 07:55 AMPosted by Vallentha
We also have a paladin tank (our raid leader) tanking the fight. I usually don't see him popping his CDS until his health starts to get low, so at random times.


He should be using his cooldowns in anticipation of the late bounces where he is always going to take a big hit.

02/19/2012 07:55 AMPosted by Vallentha
Are we waiting to long to dispel the debuff? Our RL keeps telling us to wait for them to have 75% or more health before dispelling the debuff.


I can't think of a time on normal mode where we didn't just instantly dispel. The only scenario to look out for is dispelling somebody right as the ball is about to hit their group.
Edited by Draeger on 2/19/2012 10:28 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
9450
We had trouble at this at first as well, ill explain how we do it. First and foremost managing the dispells is key in this fight as stated above make sure the healers know whos doing what and be somewhat organized.
For your tank DBM has timers on them tell him to watch for psychic scream , communication is key letting your healers know you're about to take a big hit helps alot. Also have him pop word of glory right before the hit (when hes at 100% so he gets the absorb) it'll help him out alot

For the bounces what I personally think is the easiest strat is to go 5-5-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 etc after the second ball hits the boss the melee can just get out of the way

this results in like 40 seconds of the boss stacking the dmg buff, i cant remember what its called but there should only be one psychic scream I believe, I might be wrong

dont use a world marker to tell people where to stand mark a person


Also how are you positioning the boss?

If you are standing in front of the boss before you pull is 6 o'clock, tank the boss standing at 3 or 9'o clock. Tanking him sideways makes him longer and gives you more room to work with when you're trying to hit the boss with the ball.

when using raid wide CDs for dmg reduction dont pop them as soon as the phase begins this will end up with you have everyone near full for the first half but end the phase with people low you want to pop your raid wide CDs closer to the middle of the phase.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Priest
9050
I can't think of a time on normal mode where we didn't just instantly dispel. The only scenario to look out for is dispelling somebody right as the ball is about to hit their group.


Oh thank you for informing me of this! I will make sure to let the healers know that it is fine to dispel, as long as the ball isn't about to hit their group.


this results in like 40 seconds of the boss stacking the dmg buff, i cant remember what its called but there should only be one psychic scream I believe, I might be wrong

dont use a world marker to tell people where to stand mark a person


Also how are you positioning the boss?

If you are standing in front of the boss before you pull is 6 o'clock, tank the boss standing at 3 or 9'o clock. Tanking him sideways makes him longer and gives you more room to work with when you're trying to hit the boss with the ball.

when using raid wide CDs for dmg reduction dont pop them as soon as the phase begins this will end up with you have everyone near full for the first half but end the phase with people low you want to pop your raid wide CDs closer to the middle of the phase.


That's what we have been doing, putting markers behind the boss after the ball gits 4stacks. Should we leave a mark on me? Or maybe a dps?

We try and pop RCD's when everyone is below 50%.
Edited by Vallentha on 2/19/2012 12:05 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Priest
13920
A paladin tank should be glyphing his divine protection solely for the purpose of reducing the damage the second psychic drain he will see each phase. He should also try to WOG at full hp for the guarded by the light buff right before the drain, and you should shield him. Yes, this might be overkill, but a dead tank is a dead raid.

edit: Also about dispelling, don't wait until 75% hp to dispel, just dispel asap as long as they have enough hp to survive it. If you are worried about them dying to the dispel, pw:shield them and then dispel.
Edited by Skye on 2/19/2012 1:02 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14475

We keep wiping and i really don't understand why. I don't have logs...since i'm pretty sure my guild doesn't use those,


Type: /combatlog (before the fight starts)

We all are able to pull up to 14-19k hps during the fight. I'm not sure if it's just the healers, or our tank, or dps is doing something wrong.


These numbers are too low for 2-healing but are fine for 3-healing

You have to know why wipes occur so that you can fix the problems (isn't this obvious?!)
Also if you don't see why the wipe happened you probably weren't paying attention. Did someone mess up the ball bouncing? Did someone not stack for black phase? Did the tank die in Psychic Drain?

You should give your healers specific assignments. For example:
(A) dispel, heal ranged group
(B) heal tank
(C) heal tank and melee group

and organize CD rotations for black phases.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14475
02/19/2012 07:55 AMPosted by Vallentha
We usually only have 3 standing up in the front and 6 in the back,


This will cause excessive damage to the melee, they will be in risk of dying if they get the DoT at the same time, or the tank may die if he is in the splash

I would recommend 1 tank, 5 melee, 4 ranged. Always keep people topped off, then you can just insta-dispel dots. Waiting to dispel dots is retarded because swapping the order of two hits doesn't reduce the total damage done..
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
10395

I would recommend 1 tank, 5 melee, 4 ranged. Always keep people topped off, then you can just insta-dispel dots. Waiting to dispel dots is retarded because swapping the order of two hits doesn't reduce the total damage done..


I suggest this as well :)
We usually run with a Holy Priest (myself), a Druid, and either a Disc Priest or Paladin healer depending on who we're able to manage at the time. (1 tank for this fight, 2 or 3 melee DPS, 3 healers, and rest range on filling)


With using a 7-5-5-5-etc method, what ended up working for us was having myself on melee, the druid focus on the range, and the Disc Priest or Holy Pally focus entirely on the tank, those two being the healers that stands in the melee group for sure to keep in reach. We dispelled players in our assigned groups for myself and the druid, and made sure players were at least 75% in health before we did, sometimes coordination is in order with the other healer if they need help.
Reply Quote
100 Dwarf Priest
14145
I just want to add; it sounds like you have the tank healer healing the melee group as well. I don't know what your experience has been but it's very easy to lose a tank as the light phase wears on. I don't think I would be able to heal the melee group and the tank both. My guild has two healers in the melee group and one with the ranged. One dedicated tank healer, one healer each for the ranged and melee groups.

I will tell you that for several weeks we were working on Zon'ozz with three heals doing about 19k, 19k and 13k hps. We simply could not do it until that third healer got up to 18k. You need three healers doing close to 20k hps. Part of it is how you dish out the black phase assignments so don't jump on someone for having low hps just because they didn't get to use their big healing cooldown.

If you're dividing up your cooldowns so there's always a big one up each black phase I'm not sure what more you can do on that. Make sure you're using each cooldown correctly though. For instance, make sure the disc priest has PW: Barrier glyphed for that fight at least. And be aware that just because one person is using their big f***-off healing power doesn't mean the other healers shouldn't be spamming aoe heals. Particularly if the cooldown for that phase is divine hymn. Half of hymn's healing power is in the fact that it increases healing on the targets temporarily. Same thing with glyphed barrier; its effectiveness is in increasing the healing the other healers are doing.

I would also suggest that whoever is using their big cooldown wait a few seconds after the phase starts. I've noticed that if you start up tranq or hymn right at the beginning then people will be topped up, ticks will be wasted, and then the power fades and everyone's health crashes.

Oh yes, it sounds like you're using PW: B as the only cooldown for one of the black phases; I don't think that will work. It doesn't last long enough and it doesn't do any actual healing on its own.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14475
02/21/2012 03:28 PMPosted by Rustbeard
Oh yes, it sounds like you're using PW: B as the only cooldown for one of the black phases; I don't think that will work. It doesn't last long enough and it doesn't do any actual healing on its own.


wat

On the topic of black phases, our druid can just about solo heal them all: tranq for #1 and #3, and tree for #2
Reply Quote
90 Undead Priest
9050
I just want to add; it sounds like you have the tank healer healing the melee group as well. I don't know what your experience has been but it's very easy to lose a tank as the light phase wears on. I don't think I would be able to heal the melee group and the tank both. My guild has two healers in the melee group and one with the ranged. One dedicated tank healer, one healer each for the ranged and melee groups.

I will tell you that for several weeks we were working on Zon'ozz with three heals doing about 19k, 19k and 13k hps. We simply could not do it until that third healer got up to 18k. You need three healers doing close to 20k hps. Part of it is how you dish out the black phase assignments so don't jump on someone for having low hps just because they didn't get to use their big healing cooldown.

If you're dividing up your cooldowns so there's always a big one up each black phase I'm not sure what more you can do on that. Make sure you're using each cooldown correctly though. For instance, make sure the disc priest has PW: Barrier glyphed for that fight at least. And be aware that just because one person is using their big f***-off healing power doesn't mean the other healers shouldn't be spamming aoe heals. Particularly if the cooldown for that phase is divine hymn. Half of hymn's healing power is in the fact that it increases healing on the targets temporarily. Same thing with glyphed barrier; its effectiveness is in increasing the healing the other healers are doing.

I would also suggest that whoever is using their big cooldown wait a few seconds after the phase starts. I've noticed that if you start up tranq or hymn right at the beginning then people will be topped up, ticks will be wasted, and then the power fades and everyone's health crashes.

Oh yes, it sounds like you're using PW: B as the only cooldown for one of the black phases; I don't think that will work. It doesn't last long enough and it doesn't do any actual healing on its own.


I think that is what is causing us to wipe. We tried it again last night, we only got to the 3rd phase until we all wiped.

We got spirit link for the first phase, PW:B and Divine Hymn for second, and our warrior tank using his 4piece for the 3rd phase.

We have been leaving two healers in the back, with me healing the melee AND the tank. I started to run out of mana after phase 1.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
5615
Ok if you are struggling, when the ball comes out ranged sends it to the melee, melee sends it back, and ranged sends it back to them etc, three times it hits the melee on the fourth return melee get out let it hit the boss. Remember, dont bounce it more than you can handle every raid is different, some groups can handle 7 or 10 bounces other cannot. The thing is to find a comfortable number of bounces for your group. Normally people do odd number bounces, but you have to figure out what your group can handle most do 5

Everyone stack up on the black phase and I mean stack tight, healers are going to have to use aoe heal cooldowns. About dispeling, we had one person doing dispels and making sure the dispeled had enough health to take the dispel. But using more than one person to do it is fine as long as all the healers are aware of who is doing what.
Edited by Kydoìme on 2/25/2012 12:52 PM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]