Dear Blizzard, Stop making 1 tank fights.

85 Blood Elf Paladin
I'll be your OT.
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85 Night Elf Druid
um find a tank with a dps os or a dps with os tank set...

how gd hard is that 2 do?

"how gd" hard is it to use proper english?

To not sound like a douche, my apologies if you have something like dyslexia or are foreign.
Edited by Fuzzybutt on 2/21/2012 2:23 PM PST
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85 Goblin Shaman
Heroic halfus was easily two tankable if you had a paladin use blessing of protection
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90 Troll Death Knight
You can't argue that blizzard didnt design enough 2 tank fights. 6/8 normal and 7/8 heroic bosses were DESIGNED to be 2 tanked. Blizzard still clearly supports using 2 tanks.

The only thing to argue is that the downsides of using 1 tank on fights designed for 2 were not harsh enough.
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100 Gnome Priest
They could implement some sort of tank only buff that increases raid wide damage and stacks twice, making a 2nd tank ideal, but none of us like being no more useful than a warm body.

Cleave style fights and tank swaps got really old in wrath, and did give us plenty to complain about.

Fights really need to be designed to have 2 tanks, that do something besides taunt the same boss at planned intervals. At the very least tank swap fights should have much higher damage if you fail to tank swap.

The only thing to argue is that the downsides of using 1 tank on fights designed for 2 were not harsh enough.

Edited by Koban on 2/21/2012 2:36 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
I don't know how much progression you were doing. But before nerfs and massively out-gearing the place, i believe it would be extremely difficult to find a 10m guild that didn't use 3 tanks on HEROIC halfus (because of the stacking debuff) and a guild that used 1 tank for HEROIC V&T.

I'm not saying that it isn't possible to 1 tank a lot of T11 NOW... but when it was progression, it wasn't done.

2-tank Halfus was fine. 1-tank V&T wasn't something I would have done, but other people did. For them, it was a case of communicating with the tank and having him move to a portal so that he could exit the Twilight realm instantly when he shifted.

Yor'sahj was 2-tank AND 3-healable, pre 5%, from personal experience. 2-tank, 2-heal would have had zero problems as well. 2-tank, 2-heal Madness isn't about dps requirements, you already have more dps by default than if you went 1-tank, 3-heal, which is a conventional strat. Spine was 2-tanked for progression by many, many, many people, and other people used a Kittybear or dps plate to tank the Amalg.

Blizzard designed these for 2 tanks. Now, it's certainly not within the realm for people to find 1-tank strats easier - that largely depends on their dps and healers, and it's a personal choice. You made your choice, but you can't blame Blizzard for the choice that you make, and telling people who're joining your guild that you'll be 1-tanking Heroic Ultraxion so you can come here and make a post about how only they won't accept only being in raid for 25% of fights is just a bit silly.

They designed 7/8 fights this tier for 2 tanks. They designed 6//7 fights in T12 for 2 tanks. They ARE designing mostly 2-tank fights.
Edited by Slashlove on 2/21/2012 3:13 PM PST
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1 Draenei Paladin
02/21/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Slashlove
other people used a Kittybear or dps plate to tank the Amalg.

I'm always confused by this example you use. Wouldn't you put the real tank on the amalg and have the extra dpser just group up and kill bloods? I do it at ret with RF on.
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90 Night Elf Druid
I'm always confused by this example you use. Wouldn't you put the real tank on the amalg and have the extra dpser just group up and kill bloods? I do it at ret with RF on.

It's the Amalg that hits the softest, since you won't be stacking it till you're about to push for the plate (what people did was have the P---T-A, where P is Plate, T is Tank with Bloods and A is Amag, get Amalg a bit then aoe bloods which splashes onto the Amalg but when the Bloods die, it won't be soaked immediately, then the tank would taunt the Amalg through the aoe'd pool and they'd finish it off at the plate). The DPS takes less damage tanking the Amalg than they do tanking the holy crap bloods at the end of the fight. Granted, with the changes now, there are less Bloods at the end of the fight than there were 3 weeks ago.

Extra Amalgs (like during the cleanup->roll part, or the Amalg from killing the Corruption right before Tendon to avoid grip if that was in the guild's strat, which isn't in everyone's) would be taken by the actual tank, just the one Amalg that wouldn't be breaking the plate and never stacking would be tanked by the "second tank".
Edited by Slashlove on 2/21/2012 3:42 PM PST
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100 Draenei Death Knight
The only reason to two tank spine was to pick up as many bloods as possible near the end to help keep them under control. But we did two tank it and got it pre-nerf so I think you are misguided on how many guilds one tanked it.
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92 Tauren Warrior
There's 2 big culprits to this type of problem that noone's mentioned:

1) Reliance on enrage timers (or stacking damage, dps burst checks on things like tendons, etc...essentially the same thing). This forces a hardcore guild to look at ways of maximizing dps; IE "hey, if we can pull out a tank or healer, we can win!". If there were more fights in the classic "execution" style with no enrage, this wouldn't be as big an issue. Heigan's dance, is of course the best example, but there were others (though back in the day, many fights required 3+ tanks anyway).

Take the enrage timers out of a lot of the single tank fights and put the focus on execution, and hardcore guilds won't have to care so much about an offtank having slightly worse gear for a dps offspec.

2) The move to 10-man raiding. In a 25-man, 1 dps isn't "usually" the critical difference. In sure as hell can be. That's one reason why bears have become so popular on 10-man hardmodes they can "swap" to dps for periods on. There's no real fix for this now <shrug>

In my mind, one alternative would be to follow the trend of safeguard, new vigilance, hand of sacrifice and others, and let the offtank pull the duty of "tank cooldown machine", while taking away pain suppression and similar effects from healers. The healers would heal damage taken, the tanks would protect against damage being taken (or for some abilities, take the bullet themselves). This would take some tweaking (lengthen the cd time for actual "self prevention" things like shield wall for example so that a tank would rely on an offtank saving him), but it'd be a far more interesting thing IMO to be the damage prevention role as an offtank than "I swap to dps, sit, or at best am taunting off every other fight".

Having said probly won't happen :P The best bandaid I can see occurring is to bring up and balance equally the dps tanks do when not tanking, so there's less incentive to sit a tank to cheese an encounter (since you'd get much smaller gains than presently). I'd also love a way to make offspec gearing easier (tier gear can swap benediction style perhaps?), but meh.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
I would rather them make one tank fights because the fights that have the tank-switch-debuff is an old mechanic that could be or should be drowned out. There is nothing fun about switching tanks. I think Blizzard can do better, I know they can do better.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
to be fair .. i think absolutely no mechanic of any fight should be cheezed by dps cooldown.

I think it's flat out stupid that some "tank-intended" mechanics can be bypassed by cheat death, dispersion, cauterize etc.

While i understand the OP's problem, since we had the same one (our prot pally had to quick learn how to play ret, and gear up, or else he would be benched) .. i think asking for all fights to be 1 tanked is a little stupid.

At least i like the "tank communication" aspect of many fights .. either in positioning, taunting, switching places etc. I think it makes encounters interesting for the tanks .. because being completely honest: the vast majority of cataclysm bosses are EXTREMELLY simple to tank.

Aside from some bosses, most of them is just a matter of popping CDs at the right time.

Fun fights for 2 or more tanks:
- Al'ar. Not saying that fights should have 3-4 tanks requirement, but the "tank role" on the fight was pretty fun to do. Lot of movement, tanking adds, etc etc.

- the dreadlord/pit lord on hyjal .. it's much more fun to be OT on those fights, grab adds, kite them through the npcs etc.

- Warmaster blackhorne
- Alysrazor
- Ragnaros heroic
- Beth
- Wyrmbreaker
- Magmaw
- Omnotron
- Maloriak
- Nefarian
- Thorim
- Freya
- 4 horseman
- KT
- Lich king

Imo, those are fun fights to double tank, simply because both tanks have something to do. Either there's more than one focus of action, or quick tank swaps .. or tanks have to tank several different targets. I think those are interesting ways to have 2 tank fights.

2 tank fights that require 2 tanks simply because of "taunt because of X debuff every few seconds" or "rotate cd". Those are just stupid.

I honestly hate when tanking fews like "im dpsing .. dpsing .. dpsing .. ok, it's my turn to tank".
Edited by Eflow on 2/21/2012 7:06 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
02/21/2012 09:16 PMPosted by Rijda
I prefer that to going ret or being sat altogether.

DS Ret is pretty fun though :p
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85 Human Paladin
Healers feel your pain.
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85 Tauren Warrior
02/21/2012 09:16 PMPosted by Rijda
It does seem like they got a bit lazy with this raid tier.

Couldn't be. There's not a saber lash or blood mirror in sight.
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85 Goblin Shaman
02/22/2012 04:34 AMPosted by Mooclane
It does seem like they got a bit lazy with this raid tier.

Couldn't be. There's not a saber lash or blood mirror in sight.

Made me remember this video of "how to offtank bloodqueen lanathel"... lol
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90 Troll Priest
DPS off-spec is not an option, why? And not the "because tank doesn't want to dps" answer because that is a player's choice. In a thread demanding/requesting Blizzard change raid encounters, it is a matter of viable options rather than what players 'feel' like doing. Tanks, and healers, with dps off-specs are the viable option for 1 tank, or 1-2-3 healer, fights and as long as that option is viable, it is a player issue not a game design flaw that Blizz has to address.

In short, get an off-tank with dps off-spec, like everyone else does.
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1 Human Warrior
Not only that, but its very easy to gear an acceptable DPS offspec as a MS tank. A mixture of valor point, craftable, 5 man, LFR, and unneeded gear will do easily.

Also, the biggest pure DPS check in the encounter (Ultraxion) is 2-tankable and meant to be that way. Zon'ozz on 25m is 2-tankable, or if you are suffering on DPS you can even have your off-tank don a mixture of tank/dps gear (if he doesn't have a full DPS offset) and tank the claw in DPS spec.

If your offtank's offspec is atrocious, that's his problem. Building a set that can do acceptable DPS is not hard. If "acceptable" DPS from your OT's OS isn't good enough to beat an enrage on a fight like Zon'ozz and Yor'sahj, then your MS DPS have "unacceptable" DPS.

If it is that difficult to find a tank with an offspec (90% of tanks I know have one, and all bears automatically have one) then you can simply take turns on the one-tank fights. Not that hard to do, everyone has to sit occasionally.
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85 Tauren Druid
In all seriousness, OP, why are you benching your co tank instead of keeping him in as DPS to improve his skills there?

This is what it boils down to for me. Not bringing the second tank on most fights means his tanking gear will suffer more than it needs to. For the few fights you DO need him for, he won't be as good as he could be.

Finding a good all-around player that knows how to dps and tank both may be difficult, but it's worth it. His offset won't suffer if he puts the effort in and you work with him.

No, I don't do heroics. The same principles apply though.

Asking for fights to be all 2-tank fights is stupid. "Blizzard, please put less variety in your game. It's inconvenient. Boredom is better."
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