Amalgamation of Hunter Abilities

90 Human Hunter
6045
This is not a point of contention, or something open to debate. It is a matter of fact that Hunter has the most keybinds in the game if you wish to play arena competitively. More than Affliction Warlock, yes. I got Gladiator two times this season without most of the following abilities keybound; that being said, I have literally 84 binds on this character.

Therefore, I submit that it would be fair to combine things like Serpent Sting, Chimera Shot and Widow Venom - this is the same as Rogues, Warriors, etc have except mine require three globals and constant maintenance.

Concussive Shot should be removed from the global.

Stings in general are a completely out-dated mechanic - and by completely outdated, I mean completely out-dated. Combine or remove them or make them do something meaningful.

Aspects are a mess and haven't been designed in several years. On top of that you chose to remove Aspect of the Beast and Aspect of the Monkey - why? I mean, really? How does a class go into an expansion without anyone being like, "oh hey, we took out all their passive mitigation.. oops. Oh yeah, just let them keep Aspect of the Wild... just in case."

Melee abilities - yeah, you're handling this or whatever in the expansion which I'm supposed to wait for. I hope you have plans for some sort of Cone of Cold or Shadowflame because if you don't, it's going to be awful.

Immolation/Explosive Trap - very, VERY specific uses in PvE, no use at all whatsoever in PvP. I am now and have almost always been one of the highest rated Hunters in RBGS, so please don't go there.

Mend Pet - pretty useless. I mean, it's nice but it doesn't cost anything other than a global. Seems like it wasn't designed very well. Should be able to heal my pet when I need to, and not heal him when I don't. Now I just keep it up all the time out of a nervous habit. Not compelling gameplay.

Master's Call/Roar of Sacrifice - these are Hunter staples at this point. Did you really intend on every serious Hunter having a Monkey out of all things? Master's Call requires both the Hunter and his pet be in line of sight of his target and not be crowd controlled, this is too much and should function like Devour Magic or anything else. Moreover, these should be a base ability on a minute long cooldown and come only from your pet, period.

Tranquilizing Shot - needs to change. At least the other true casters have multiple types of spells. You're just designing us into some type of pigeonhole where we only have.. ranged attacks? That's going to be very silly. This should be woven into Arcane Shot, or something, so it's actually good. Not just something you gave us because you gave Mage so many things that we fell behind.

--

Kind of off-topic but I am pretty uninspired by my abilities this expansion. It seems like your development team agrees that Camouflage sucks. So what else? Aspect of the Fox, which I count as a nerf especially when compared to Hot/Improved Hot streak - not to mention Scorch is ALWAYS castable while moving. Imagine how pissed Mages would be if they had to toggle Molten Armor first. Umm.. why not just combine them for something like Mind Spike or Frostfire Bolt so it does the most to whoever? That is good design, and it would look cooler.

Binding Shot is a step in the right direction, but seriously...too many abilities. Please make our 87 ability something you would consider giving Mages or Rogues - not that Camouflage and constantly casting wasn't fun.. just.. eh. Everything I listed here is something that would not be overpowered, would barely change anything and would be a huge quality of life improvement.

Thanks.

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90 Draenei Shaman
6405
I really thought that the 3 hunter abilities for cata were pretty bad. We have a green steady shot (don't know why they couldn't have givin it the frostfire orb treatment so it changes function for different specs) an aspect that gimps our damage output to have up but has pitiful returns for focus when being hit and mages can cast a somewhat similar hiting ability always on the move without gimping damage. Camo was just badly implimented and I hope they reconsider its usefulness and revamp it.

We didn't get anything to really spice things up in our rotation like how other specs did (Colossus smash, Flame orb, Mind spike come to mind) And you could play a hunter at 80 basically the same as now in pve.
Edited by Zaeleon on 3/4/2012 8:00 PM PST
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90 Human Hunter
6045
Some of my thoughts exactly!
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85 Troll Hunter
7950
We didn't get anything to really spice things up in our rotation like how other specs did (Colossus smash, Flame orb, Mind spike come to mind) And you could play a hunter at 80 basically the same as now in pve.


This is exactly what I fear going into Mop, I don't want to be using almost the same exact rotation I did in Cata. :|
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85 Human Warlock
11095
03/04/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Reedful
Tranquilizing Shot - needs to change. At least the other true casters have multiple types of spells. You're just designing us into some type of pigeonhole where we only have.. ranged attacks? That's going to be very silly. This should be woven into Arcane Shot, or something, so it's actually good. Not just something you gave us because you gave Mage so many things that we fell behind.


I can get behind most everything but this. Dispels need to become an active choice, and not tied to a damage ability. Here's hoping this ability becomes a dispel-all with a significant 15-30 second cooldown.

Really hope for all they outright remove aspect of the hawk. It seems blizzard is removing some of the static offensive self buffs like fel armor. Of course for mages the change will be a choice between 5% haste, crit or mastery so maybe hunters will get something along those lines.

Not too familiar with hunter stings, but I thought only wyvern and serpent sting were left? If thats the case then wyvern overwriting serpent prevents your own DoT from breaking it, isn't that a good thing?
Edited by Sinthìa on 3/4/2012 9:38 PM PST
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85 Human Warlock
11095
03/04/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Reedful
Melee abilities - yeah, you're handling this or whatever in the expansion which I'm supposed to wait for. I hope you have plans for some sort of Cone of Cold or Shadowflame because if you don't, it's going to be awful.


Aren't you guys keeping wing clip?
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85 Troll Hunter
7950
Melee abilities - yeah, you're handling this or whatever in the expansion which I'm supposed to wait for. I hope you have plans for some sort of Cone of Cold or Shadowflame because if you don't, it's going to be awful.


Aren't you guys keeping wing clip?


Wing clip is nothing compared to a cone slow.

inb4 "glaive throw" @_@

also a quick look at our calculator, I don't see wing clip anywhere.
Edited by Pruney on 3/4/2012 10:47 PM PST
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100 Dwarf Hunter
18595
We won't have melee weapons anymore so I don't see how wing clip would be staying.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9330
03/04/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Reedful
Therefore, I submit that it would be fair to combine things like Serpent Sting, Chimera Shot and Widow Venom - this is the same as Rogues, Warriors, etc have except mine require three globals and constant maintenance.


This is something that's always confused me. Widow venom: it costs focus and can be dispelled, but doesn't do damage? That's just weird.



03/04/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Reedful
Immolation/Explosive Trap - very, VERY specific uses in PvE, no use at all whatsoever in PvP. I am now and have almost always been one of the highest rated Hunters in RBGS, so please don't go there.


In general, I think they need to really clean up traps. There needs to be a clear purpose for each, and they need to be central to hunters; they're one of the signature abilities / mechanics, but they've got weird stuff like snake trap, which is just a mess of abilities.

Trap launcher needs to be revamped to fit with this new trap paradigm, as well. It probably shouldn't cost focus, or it shouldn't have a cooldown. That might make for an interesting choice as a talent tier; a trap launcher-focused tier.

Traps could be the frostfire orb-type mechanic that was mentioned earlier; they change for every spec and are central to the rotation.

03/04/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Reedful
Master's Call/Roar of Sacrifice - these are Hunter staples at this point. Did you really intend on every serious Hunter having a Monkey out of all things? Master's Call requires both the Hunter and his pet be in line of sight of his target and not be crowd controlled, this is too much and should function like Devour Magic or anything else. Moreover, these should be a base ability on a minute long cooldown and come only from your pet, period.


Pets are also something that need to be cleaned up. The difficulty of using roar is a nice skill ceiling-raising mechanic (it's, like, actual pet management!), but given the difficulties experienced by hunters I'm not sure it's really necessary at this point. They're also a source of many more keybinds and macros.
Edited by Swampdonkeys on 3/5/2012 12:12 AM PST
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85 Troll Hunter
7950
In general, I think they need to really clean up traps. There needs to be a clear purpose for each, and they need to be central to hunters; they're one of the signature abilities / mechanics, but they've got weird stuff like snake trap, which is just a mess of abilities.


Please God, no. Traps would need a MAJOR overhaul if they wanted to do anything close to this, because right now they're so disgustingly clunky. I honestly wouldn't bat an eyelash if they removed traps, and replace them with shots.
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90 Human Hunter
6045
Why shouldn't it get a major overhaul?

Hunter's problem is this: all the abilities that we have are just ones that sucked originally until they eventually got buffed just enough to get by. We didn't have a gap opener for years, and then they replaced basically a feint type ability and gave us a backwards jump that requires us to be in combat, can't be used while stunned, and now is broken due to the code change to jumping.

Deterrence used to be really terrible, just increased your Dodge/Parry chance by 25% and then they realized they had to give us something better because they had given everyone else something better.. that's why Hunters are so frustrated. It's like nobody is even trying and the whole time Rogues and Mages and Priests are getting awesome spells and awesome design for not one, but at least 2 and sometimes all 3 of their talent specs.

If Blizzard truly feels like they did a good job with Hunter over the years, I don't know what to say. In my eyes it doesn't even compare.
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85 Troll Hunter
9510
Its not that Hunters aren't capable, its that it requires an inordinate amount of work to do simple things.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
14925
03/04/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Reedful
This is not a point of contention, or something open to debate. It is a matter of fact that Hunter has the most keybinds in the game if you wish to play arena competitively. More than Affliction Warlock, yes. I got Gladiator two times this season without most of the following abilities keybound; that being said, I have literally 84 binds on this character.


Anybody with half a brain will see that you are calling your opinions facts and then refuting them yourself in your opening statement.

03/04/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Reedful
Therefore, I submit that it would be fair to combine things like Serpent Sting, Chimera Shot and Widow Venom - this is the same as Rogues, Warriors, etc have except mine require three globals and constant maintenance.


So Marks is the only Hunter spec?

03/04/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Reedful
Aspects are a mess and haven't been designed in several years. On top of that you chose to remove Aspect of the Beast and Aspect of the Monkey - why? I mean, really? How does a class go into an expansion without anyone being like, "oh hey, we took out all their passive mitigation.. oops. Oh yeah, just let them keep Aspect of the Wild... just in case."


If by "several years" you mean less than two.

03/04/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Reedful
Immolation/Explosive Trap - very, VERY specific uses in PvE, no use at all whatsoever in PvP. I am now and have almost always been one of the highest rated Hunters in RBGS, so please don't go there.


Once again, "very, VERY specific" must refer to nearly every AoE situation.

03/04/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Reedful
Mend Pet - pretty useless. I mean, it's nice but it doesn't cost anything other than a global. Seems like it wasn't designed very well. Should be able to heal my pet when I need to, and not heal him when I don't. Now I just keep it up all the time out of a nervous habit. Not compelling gameplay.


Sure, let's turn Mend Pet back into a channeled spell that scales based on our Intellect once again. That'd be fun.

03/04/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Reedful
Tranquilizing Shot - needs to change. At least the other true casters have multiple types of spells. You're just designing us into some type of pigeonhole where we only have.. ranged attacks? That's going to be very silly. This should be woven into Arcane Shot, or something, so it's actually good. Not just something you gave us because you gave Mage so many things that we fell behind.


So a ranged class should be a melee class and a ranged class? What does this even have to do with Tranquilizing Shot? Your seriously suggesting that because we are a ranged class with ranged attacks that our dispel should be on our DPS filler?

You've got so much !@#$%-evny of Mages, just reroll or shut-up.
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85 Troll Hunter
9510
1) Given the number of abilities we have, its pretty much a fact at this point that we have more keybinds. If you don't, you can't compete with other people. Not even ones who are far beneath you in skill level.

2) Reed has been around longer than I have, and I've been here for a long time. 2006 for me. I'm pretty sure Reed is a release baby.

3) Every AoE situation? Hardly, not all mobs last long enough to get the full effect of Explosive trap, or they get moved off the top of it. Immo trap is useless.

4) Reed wants it to be a meaningful decision to hit the button, not something we keep up out of nervous habit (I'm the same way in PvP). Would you believe there is a range of possiblities between what we have now, and what we used to have? Stop being alarmist.

5) I agree that our dispel shouldnt be tied to Arcane shot, however your reason is faulty. We are a melee class and a ranged class. Haven't you noticed?
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90 Worgen Hunter
18585
Adding dispels to Arcane Shot is silly because it requires no thinking. This was the reason it was unlinked in the first place. With dispels dispelling all buffs in MoP, that's another reason to keep it separate. Other dispels are getting Tranq Shot treatment.

I agree with other points though since they've been brought up multiple times. The biggest issue I had in cata beta was the introduction of Aspect of Fox. It wasn't a buff at all, because they tied our resource regen to the shot they allowed us to cast on the move at the cost of lost RAP from Hawk. They could've just not implemented it in the first place and made Steady/Cobra castable on the move like Auto Shot, but instead they gave us this mind numbing clunky mechanic of aspect swapping that they specifically stated they wanted to remove in wrath.
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85 Troll Hunter
9510
Adding dispels to Arcane Shot is silly because it requires no thinking. This was the reason it was unlinked in the first place. With dispels dispelling all buffs in MoP, that's another reason to keep it separate. Other dispels are getting Tranq Shot treatment.

I agree with other points though since they've been brought up multiple times. The biggest issue I had in cata beta was the introduction of Aspect of Fox. It wasn't a buff at all, because they tied our resource regen to the shot they allowed us to cast on the move at the cost of lost RAP from Hawk. They could've just not implemented it in the first place and made Steady/Cobra castable on the move like Auto Shot, but instead they gave us this mind numbing clunky mechanic of aspect swapping that they specifically stated they wanted to remove in wrath.


Every other class had its shifting-type mechanics either removed completely or dumbed down. They stated this was a design intent. Then they make Hunters macro !Aspect of the Hawk or !Fox into every damned shot.

I feel like Hunter design iteration relies less on minor tweaks with a scalpel and more on blows from a sledge hammer.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
16385
Everyone gets so caught up in the specifcs of the suggested changes that they start to lose sight of the main point. REDUCE, COMBINE and SIMPLIFY or REMOVE!

It's a common theme amongst hunter threads that has been repeated over and over. There are plenty of threads dicussing the specifics.

One thing that jumped out in OP was the pet abilities. Shouldn't things like Heart of the Pheonix and Roar of Sacrifice be baseline HUNTER abilities and not associated with the pets or pet talents trees? Sorry Reed I was confused if you were saying they should or shouldn't.
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90 Human Hunter
6045
This is not a point of contention, or something open to debate. It is a matter of fact that Hunter has the most keybinds in the game if you wish to play arena competitively. More than Affliction Warlock, yes. I got Gladiator two times this season without most of the following abilities keybound; that being said, I have literally 84 binds on this character.


Anybody with half a brain will see that you are calling your opinions facts and then refuting them yourself in your opening statement.


So Marks is the only Hunter spec?


If by "several years" you mean less than two.


Once again, "very, VERY specific" must refer to nearly every AoE situation.


Sure, let's turn Mend Pet back into a channeled spell that scales based on our Intellect once again. That'd be fun.


So a ranged class should be a melee class and a ranged class? What does this even have to do with Tranquilizing Shot? Your seriously suggesting that because we are a ranged class with ranged attacks that our dispel should be on our DPS filler?

You've got so much !@#$%-evny of Mages, just reroll or shut-up.

I'll refute this honorably, without mentioning that I'm higher rated than you on 4 different classes and have been R1 more times than you've been a Duelist.

--
How? Do you have 84 binds? I'm a Gladiator Warlock, by the way. I have less. On my Gladiator Mage I have WAY less. Refute that with your expertise and facts, please.

Yes, Marks is the only viable PvP Hunter spec and it always will be unless the class goes through a major overhaul or Attack Power scales to a ridiculous extent which will require a retuning and a whole new expansion. The reason I don't mention PvE keybinds is because.. you don't need all of them. Any top Hunter capable of consistent top parses can do so with less than 15 binds. That doesn't count.

No, Aspects haven't been designed in several years - I mean that to say that since people could get passive run speed from talents, they haven't updated Aspect of the Cheetah. Aspect of the Pack is a relic. Removing Monkey, Dragonhawk(which was one of our expansion abilities btw.. just removed) and Beast isn't design.. it's just admitting that they failed.

No, Immolation Trap is only useful if you have 30/24 seconds before the pull to preplace it - that's why I said very specific. I'm sure you use Immolation Trap all the time, though.

Are you really defending Mend Pet design? A free ability you spam all the time to.. heal your pet? That's silly. I said it should be redesigned, I didn't suggest what you said.

--

Lastly, you said that.. we're supposed to be melee and a caster? No, we're not supposed to be. But that's where we are, awkwardly placed in the arms race between the two types of damage dealers. That's where all the problems in our design stem from. Moreover, Tranquilizing Shot pales in comparison to Devour Magic(costs nothing), Spellsteal(costs less, and gives them the buff), Dispel(might as well cost nothing, because Shadow Priests don't have mana issues) and Purge(superior) - all the other Ranged Damage Dealers have superior tools, so why shouldn't we? It deals with travel time, 1/5 of our total resource as the cost.

So now I know where you'll go... you'll compare us to whoever has it worse in that specific field even though they have other options. You'll say Titan's Grip Fury Warriors, Moonkins, Combat Rogues.. who knows. It's stupid. Warriors got Heroic Leap fixed in 3 weeks because they couldn't use it over inclined terrain. I almost thought that was fine and then I realized.. I haven't been able to use mine on inclined terrain since it came out.... 4 years ago. Awesome.

Your logic is fallacious and you're a salty, unsuccessful player with no awareness of mechanics outside your own limited field of view. I wish you the best of luck with your courageous battle with literacy, and thank you for your very informative, constructive input.

That is all.
Edited by Reedful on 3/5/2012 9:33 AM PST
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85 Troll Hunter
7950
Why shouldn't it get a major overhaul?


I wasn't saying it shouldn't, but if Blizzard did want to make traps central to every spec it would need a major overhaul. I'd prefer them...to focus on other areas rather then try to force traps down our throats.
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