PVE Gear

85 Night Elf Druid
5745
I like the new idea for 'pvp oriented' stat budgets coming with MoP. However, I noticed a potential problem.

When we are talking about damage output in pvp vs pve, it's easy to differentiate between player controlled characters and NPCs, giving the game a natural way to control the levels of damage that is done in pvp and pve.

You said that 'pvp Defense' and 'pvp Power' would be stats found only on pvp gear, with the intent to increase damage reduction and damage/healing output against player targets only. This is intended to make pvp gear more effective in pvp than pve gear.

However, if 'pvp Power' increases the amount of healing done in addition to damage (to players), how is the game going to differentiate between players in pvp, and players in pve? As it stands, players only ever heal other players, even in pve. How is boosting the healing done on pvp gear via the 'pvp Power' stat going to keep it from becoming better for pve than pve gear?

If the intended design is supposed to make pvp gear more effective in pvp across the board, then there's going to be a problem with the 'pvp Power' stat if it increases the amount of healing done.
Edited by Baeloro on 3/6/2012 5:29 PM PST
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100 Human Warlock
13615
03/06/2012 05:04 PMPosted by Tonix
I'd hope so, but there has been no statement that would lead me to believe this. I wouldn't be surprised if the plan was for PvP gear to do they same damage as normal raid gear, while heroic gear was higher damage even in PvP situations.


Okay, but then the trade is going be that they will take more damage. In his example earlier he stated that players will have an innate 30% damage reduction against pvp targets. So If they start taking off their pvp gear for more damage, their 50% damage reduction starts to fail closer to that 30%, making them much easier to kill.


Well yes obviously they will take more damage, but that's also the case now isn't it? And people still use PvE gear. Certain classes (rogues, mages) can afford to drop survivability for damage because they have escape tools.
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However, if 'pvp Power' increases the amount of healing done in addition to damage (to players), how is the game going to differentiate between players in pvp, and players in pve? As it stands, players only ever heal other players, even in pve, how is boosting the healing done on pvp gear going to keep it from becoming better for pve than pve gear?


Likely, PvP Power simply will not work in Dungeons/Raids.

Blue confirm?
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85 Dwarf Paladin
0
If we were to compare introductory PvE gear with introductory PvP gear, the PvP gear would have a lower item level, but would be stacked with lots of 'free' PvP Power and Defense that don't count against that items item budget.


Wouldn't it be more intuitive to have PvE and PvP gear of the same tier have the same item level, and have the PvP stats use item budget, instead of having PvP gear be a lower tier and have those stats be free?
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85 Human Warlock
8875
Likely, PvP Power simply will not work in Dungeons/Raids.

Blue confirm?


That's the idea.
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100 Human Warlock
13615
Daxxari, you asked me about a page and a half ago to state my example.

I stated it, and you haven't responded to it.


I've responded to it at least twice, once before you asked it specifically and failed to address the 'there are HUGE things that don't add up simply because they cannot' that were supposedly at issue with the system. In reality, you were just still worried about PvE trinkets in PvP, not the system we're discussing specifically.

So... you came here bearing elaborations when it was too early to even elaborate..?

>_>


There's a difference between being able to discuss our intentions regarding how PvP stats should work overall and our intentions, and knowing exactly how individual trinkets are going to perform, complete with stats.


I think most people understand that the system in general works fine. The problem with the system is it doesn't seem to account for proc based items (pretty much always trinkets or weapons). So saying someone is "just" worried about trinkets is kinda of silly; trinkets and other proc based items are really the only things that need to be discussed. Anyone with a mind understands that the system you're talking about will work fine for items with only stats on them.
Edited by Embräce on 3/6/2012 5:34 PM PST
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90 Undead Death Knight
8900
The same development team who created Deathbringer's Will, Dislodged Foreign Object, Vial of Shadows and Cunning of the Cruel thought that this Cataclysmic Gladiator's Badge of Victory was an acceptable model for the pvp equivalent.
Cant say I'll be holding my breath for pandas when it comes to making pvp gear dominant for pvp. You always have to top yourself for the next tiers raid trinkets, for once I think the slippery slope fallacy is actually true in this case.

PVE trinkets will always remain dynamic and new every tier, while the PVP equivalents always follow a model you deem balanced (When that's not true, they're mostly garbage).
So can you honestly tell me youre going to deviate from the PVP trinkets model or that somehow an on use trinket with a 2 minute cooldown or an underpowered proc will be better than their PVE equivalents?
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85 Night Elf Hunter
0
Magnifico
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100 Human Warrior
17685
03/06/2012 05:29 PMPosted by Embräce
Certain classes (rogues, mages) can afford to drop survivability for damage because they have escape tools.

That's a separate issue that's clouding the stat change.

I agree it needs addressed. Those classes have too many tools for the damage they produce.
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90 Troll Rogue
12450
I realise this is probably not what is trying to be communicated here but the way i read this is.

PVE gear does more damage? To me that basically means if you want to do the most damage you should be wearing PVE gear in PVP?

The stats will probably translate differently but I think players will find a way around that. if the potential to do more damage is greater from PVE gear players will ultimately find the best way to achieve the potential highest damage. The challenge will be making PvP gear enough of a Defense against PVE gear to demote its usefulness. Leading back to the situation we have now where moving from pve to pvp is basically impossible without a huge spend of gold and a few days of crafting stuff.

This seems like over complicating the issue. Why not just make PVP gear completely irrelevant and base PvP defense and PvP offense dependent on rating?

oh and I don't pvp because I suck at it and I don't like it. Has nothing to do with the gear.
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100 Gnome Rogue
11275
PVE gear does more damage? To me that basically means if you want to do the most damage you should be wearing PVE gear in PVP?

The stats will probably translate differently but I think players will find a way around that. if the potential to do more damage is greater from PVE gear players will ultimately find the best way to achieve the potential highest damage. The challenge will be making PvP gear enough of a Defense against PVE gear to demote its usefulness. Leading back to the situation we have now where moving from pve to pvp is basically impossible without a huge spend of gold and a few days of crafting stuff.


Yeah I was thinking about this too. A pretty extreme example would be something like your healer(s) on your arena/rbg team in full pvp gear maxing out their offensive/defensive power, while the dps on their team sit in bis pve gear stomping on others. The dps will still have the base 30% reduction, along with receiving INCREASED healing from the healers with all that pvp power.
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85 Worgen Druid
6375
03/06/2012 02:57 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Daxx that makes it seem like your trying to make pvp gear worse for pve while making pve gear similar to how it is now.


Perhaps I didn't explain clearly enough, if that's the impression you're getting.

Right now, if you walk into PvP using PvE gear, odds are there are some dudes that aren't wearing any resilience at all that you can probably blow up. On the same token, even when fighting players that have resilience, your raw output is higher compared to them, because you have more raw dps (or healing) stats on your PvE gear.

In Mists, everyone will be a bit tougher, so even fresh PvPers aren't as likely to get insta-gibbed, making pure PvE gear less useful straight out of the gate. At the higher end, a PvP geared player will both do more damage in PvP and take less damage in PvP than a player in similarly powerful PvE gear.


Daxx - Let make it crystal clear. As it is right now, most serious pvp realms aka Tich and KT all are spamming for one type of rbg group - Dot Cleave. They are REQUIRING dot classes / casters with cunning or Legendary weapons (Daggers, or Staff). Even evenly matched in skill and in resilience, the Boomkin with heroic Cunning and staff had over 6 million damage in the first 6 min of the game.
Now even during your so called fix, this Boomkin is now to have same 30% mid apposed to NONE? In this light, the Boomkin with PVE gear is getting a small buff. I like implementing pve gear just as much as any other person. It makes it less mundane and enjoyable. BUT, if seems way far off to say this will level the playing field. It continues to feel as if PVP gets ignored in regards to what we gain per pvp piece apposed to pve. A simple solution would be a 8 piece PVP bonus. It would discourage the use of pve items in pvp and place more need on strictly pvp items. Trying to mix the two is a poor, lackadaisical choice in my opinion.

Joosh -
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94 Tauren Druid
6565
Daxxarri,

I have a concern that the model you're suggesting won't be able to deliver on the two-fold promise of keeping 'PvE gear out of competitive PvP' and 'reducing the barrier of entry.'

It really boils down to the innate 30% DR all players will have. The larger fraction of total PvP DR that number represents, the smaller the advantage PvP gear has over PvE gear in PvP. Which will allow extreme PvE itemization to give unfair advantages - because it has to overcome a relatively small margin.

On the other hand, the smaller that fraction gets, the more advantageous PvP gear becomes - making the barrier of entry very difficult. Somewhere in the middle there could be a 'sweet spot.' However, if you also consider that gear will come in improving tiers, it won't be possible to keep the sweet spot as seasons progress.

Can you tell me/us anything to allay these concerns?
Edited by Clay on 3/6/2012 5:57 PM PST
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85 Undead Death Knight
5765


I didn't claim so, but even before that we had Frost DK's running around with an Apparatus with on: use Mastery that the ability to deal huge damage in a kill window will outweigh any 25% effectiveness on static stats. Or Mage's with the moonwell phial, I mean, that item was 365 and people were using it over PvP trinkets. It was obviously less of a problem, but that doesn't mean that it won't hold true for MoP as well, even if they do avoid Gurthalaks Vials and Cunning's.


You can't really compare Apparatus to Cunning of the Cruel and Vial of Shadows.

Frost DKs have been, for the longest time, the easiest class ever to completely shut down in PVP. Not to mention Frost DKs are absurdly squishy and don't really have any effective outs once AMS is gone.

Cunning of the Cruel and Vial of Shadows, however, can turn their user into a marauding, godless killing machine who can still always bail out of combat at the last second if they're in trouble (cough rogue)


My point isn't to compare them though, I'm saying that it's never going to be realistic to have PvP trinkets always beat PvE trinkets even barring Cunning and Vial.
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85 Human Warlock
8780
03/06/2012 05:58 PMPosted by Corpseicle
My point isn't to compare them though, I'm saying that it's never going to be realistic to have PvP trinkets always beat PvE trinkets even barring Cunning and Vial.

Which is why people have been saying that this system doesn't address the issue.

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
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85 Worgen Druid
6375
03/06/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Blae
My point isn't to compare them though, I'm saying that it's never going to be realistic to have PvP trinkets always beat PvE trinkets even barring Cunning and Vial.

Which is why people have been saying that this system doesn't address the issue.

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.


03/06/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Blae
My point isn't to compare them though, I'm saying that it's never going to be realistic to have PvP trinkets always beat PvE trinkets even barring Cunning and Vial.

Which is why people have been saying that this system doesn't address the issue.

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.


Exactly !!! well played - Give pvp back its uniqueness, 8 piece FTW
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85 Dwarf Shaman
2880
03/06/2012 09:26 AMPosted by Freezebag
Resil scaling will make pve items useless in pvp.




that's what we want. are you kidding me?????
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