PVE Gear

85 Human Warlock
8780
Fixing PvP without addressing trinkets and weapons would be like trying to fix America's debt without fixing the economy -__-
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85 Human Paladin
8540
03/06/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Blae
Evil prevails when good men do nothing.


Triple DPS kills RLS because the RLS cannot do anything.

<3
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94 Tauren Druid
6565
03/06/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Blae
My point isn't to compare them though, I'm saying that it's never going to be realistic to have PvP trinkets always beat PvE trinkets even barring Cunning and Vial.

Which is why people have been saying that this system doesn't address the issue.

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.


Trinkets aren't really a problem - they can always make the PvP trinkets have an absurd PvP-Power proc... making it always better for PvP than any PvE trinket available. It would probably lead to stupid burst damage, but at least it would be available to all PvPers.

The real problem is that you can't have a static number lessen the barrier to entry AND have a moving barrier (gear tiers).
It's like using a ladder to climb over a wall... when the wall keeps growing taller every season. If the wall grows any meaningful amount, the ladder will become less and less helpful.

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85 Undead Death Knight
3900
Alright. I am going to use only what the blue post says, and avoid as much speculation as possible, and break this down into the most simple terms I can, because it seems things are swaying in an odd direction. Here are the facts.

"We are renaming this stat to “Defense (PvP)” or possibly “PvP Defense.” All players will have 30% base Defense, the same way all characters have some base Stamina."

30% defense equals in actual damage reduction. That is certain, but the number does NOT matter.

"PvP gear will have Defense on it, as well as a new stat, “Power (PvP).” Power increases the damage you do to other players as well as the healing you do to other players in PvP situations."

So power. Basically, it is going to be armor penetration for resilience. I'm not even going to get into the healing aspect, because that....is just going to be weird.
Now, using the same system, which is percentages mind you, that wow has used for 7 years, and i don't see why they would change that now (or how for that matter)
this is the scenario. Mind you, this is in particular regard to this quote

"The goal of this change is to make it easier for a PvP player to participate in PvE, or for a PvE player to get started in PvP. "

Player A: ZERO pvp gear. Nada. Zip. None. 30% defense. Zero Power.
Player B: Full, current season pvp gear (even just honor gear) 30% defense PLUS however much the gear adds on top. PLUS however much power this new gear has.

Now here is the thing. Regardless of the actual reduction that 30% defense gives, it will be SOME type of value. So for simplicity sake, I will say it is 30% reduction. Now we look at Player B, who has this new stat "power" on his gear. This stat makes him do MORE damage to Player A. The guy could have 99% reduction. IT DOES NOT MATTER. Power makes you do MORE damage. Following so far??

Now this was, and still is, my initial concern. Will we see a point that Player B can get enough of this "power" stat, to increase his damage EQUAL to however much reduction this baseline 30% gives a player, or in an even worse situation, BEYOND this 30% baseline reduction?

Lets just take a moment and remember what the number values were around cata launch. If Player A is in Full PVE gear, and Player B is in say, bloodthirsty, or hell even vicious gear, then the difference between the two is not that high. If I remember correctly, having 3k resilience (which for arguments sake we will say equals 30% player received damage reduction) was simply amazing! but NOW in full current tier gear, we see up to 45% or higher reduction. A 15% increase!

My point is this. I feel as if this will work in the beginning of the expansion. Now, before i go any further, I did not say a word about ENTRY LEVEL PVP (i.E. ZERO RESILIENCE) Ok. I feel this will work in the beginning of the expansion simply due to the fact that everyone is on an even playing field. A month or two into the expansion ,and the hardcore pvpers will have acquired basically a full pvp set, while some of the slower players are still working towards it. The problem is that it WILL NOT STAY THAT WAY. Ask yourself, what happens as an expansion goes on? Answer: We become more powerful with better gear.

So what is going to happen is that,at the end of the expansion, and I get bored of my characters and decide to level a new toon to pvp with, when I hit that level 90 cap, I will be in the same exact position that everyone was at a year ago, but the MAJORITY of the player base is MILES ahead.

In conclusion, this new "system" that they have unveiled does NOT do ANYTHING to achieve blizzards (long term) goal of easing pve players into pvp. We will be in the Same. Exact. Situation that we are in today. It will just have an extra stat value, thus making it slightly more complex.

Once again, we cannot say for sure how it will exactly play out until we have some actual numbers to play with, but the CONCEPT without blizzard showing us some kind of numbers to show us how they are wanting this idea to play out is absolutely pointless. Please, if I can make my concern any easier to understand, let me know. I simply am having a hard time seeing how people don't understand my point.
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85 Undead Death Knight
3900
Apologies if my post doesn't quite make sense in certain places. i typed it up about a week ago, but I still thought it had relevance to this discussion.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
17335


You can't really compare Apparatus to Cunning of the Cruel and Vial of Shadows.

Frost DKs have been, for the longest time, the easiest class ever to completely shut down in PVP. Not to mention Frost DKs are absurdly squishy and don't really have any effective outs once AMS is gone.

Cunning of the Cruel and Vial of Shadows, however, can turn their user into a marauding, godless killing machine who can still always bail out of combat at the last second if they're in trouble (cough rogue)


My point isn't to compare them though, I'm saying that it's never going to be realistic to have PvP trinkets always beat PvE trinkets even barring Cunning and Vial.

Not sure about that, people aren't really spending much time being creative about how they could deliver on their promise.

For instance, they can make PvP trinkets prerequisites to activate your 2pc and 4pc bonuses. Or they could rebalance Resilience budgeting such that a disproportionate amount comes from those slots.

I'm curious to see what they come up with. At least this time, for the first time, it's a stated design goal to make PvP trinkets superior or at least on par.
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85 Human Warrior
10965
How are these stats and the changes going to make mana matter again in pvp, especially as the item levels scale in the later tiers?
Edited by Throez on 3/6/2012 7:08 PM PST
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03/06/2012 06:07 PMPosted by Clay

Which is why people have been saying that this system doesn't address the issue.

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.


Trinkets aren't really a problem - they can always make the PvP trinkets have an absurd PvP-Power proc... making it always better for PvP than any PvE trinket available. It would probably lead to stupid burst damage, but at least it would be available to all PvPers.

The real problem is that you can't have a static number lessen the barrier to entry AND have a moving barrier (gear tiers).
It's like using a ladder to climb over a wall... when the wall keeps growing taller every season. If the wall grows any meaningful amount, the ladder will become less and less helpful.


I think that the issue here is that the 30% damage reduction as a base stat is simply aimed at fixing something that isn't broken.

If the idea is to make it easier to get into arenas/rbgs, then just make honor gear that much more easily gotten. Getting a starter kit is RIDICULOUSLY straight-forward and simple. Having an honor set is good enough to step foot in PvP.

I think what is more of a problem is that some players simply are not very good at the game and they think they are, then they get an honor kit up and say "why no try a 3s team? I'm gladiator material!" They get into 5-10 matches and think that the PvP scene is broken just because they're awful.

Clay's right in that putting a 30% damage reduction on players won't really do anything - bad players will still be bad and they will have to adjust the same as everyone else. In 2-3 seasons, that 30% damage reduction simply won't be as useful as it was the first season.

Again, if the issue is trying to get people to try out PvP, then the answer is simple: make getting an Honor kit easier to attain (time-wise). This will allow players (and rerolls) to more easily/quickly get into PvP with a working kit, then they have to hone their skills and upgrade to the best gear like everyone else.
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03/06/2012 07:06 PMPosted by Throez
How are these stats and the changes going to make mana matter again in pvp, especially as the item levels scale in the later tiers?


There has already been confirmation that Intellect will not scale mana pools in MoP. This means that resources do not scale, but return on resources do (int vs. spirit).
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85 Undead Priest
2240
This is a very interesting concept you're describing here.
I'm trying to get my head around it, would you say PVP power in a sense is like +100 damage against undead enchants, or more of a Res pen?
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Community Manager
That sounds great, honestly. I just wonder how committed you (Blizzard) is to this concept.


Well, we aren't particularly happy with the way some of these PvE burst trinkets (Cunning and Vial in particular) have worked out in PvP. Future trinkets aren't likely to follow the same model, though we do want to make trinkets powerful and interesting when we can. We can make PvP trinkets compelling by (just for example) doing things like offering proc or on-use effect to provide PvP Power, much as we already have equivalent PvE trinkets that proc strength or spell power.

If we still run into issues with out of control trinkets, then we have levers we can pull, like adjusting the internal cooldown, or reducing the spikiness of their output. Either way, allowing Cunning of the Cruel to be so dominant in PvP qualifies as a misstep.

03/06/2012 07:16 PMPosted by Healsaluja
I'm trying to get my head around it, would you say PVP power in a sense is like +100 damage against undead enchants, or more of a Res pen?


Think +damage, not penetration. Your PvP Power isn't less valuable if your target isn't already stacked with PvP Defense.
Edited by Daxxarri on 3/6/2012 7:24 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12155
Since PvP Power is a "free stat" will it become the new tuning knob for class balance?

Say rogues and mages do to much damage in PvP, will you reduce the PvP Power on their gear by X to bring them in line?

If the answer is yes, awesome.

But a follow up question would have to be:

If it does become a tuning knob, how will you keep that slot from being replaced with PvE gear? (Can't remove 50 int from a helm piece and not expect people to wear a PvE helm...)


Not to sound so negative, but all these awesome skills, talents, and spells coming in Mists sound great, but they mean absolutely nothing if I'm still dying in a cheap shot.
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100 Orc Shaman
15820
03/06/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Well, we aren't particularly happy with the way some of these PvE burst trinkets (Cunning and Vial in particular) have worked out in PvP.


yet everyone was screaming when they got datamined they were pvp breaking, and further they continue to not be fixed when you literally are left behind in rbgs if you dont' have cunning. So blizzards creditability is none existing when you consider this isn't' the first round of op trinkets in pvp for the expansion let alone previous expansions.

03/06/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We can make PvP trinkets compelling by


how about putting conquest ilvl resil + secondary stat proc on tol barad vendor, two stones with one shot, more trinket variety and keeping "pvp zone" current.
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85 Human Warrior
10965
How are these stats and the changes going to make mana matter again in pvp, especially as the item levels scale in the later tiers?


There has already been confirmation that Intellect will not scale mana pools in MoP. This means that resources do not scale, but return on resources do (int vs. spirit).


That's one of the issues, yes, but another is that a healer can get someone from 1%->100% in a matter of 4 seconds.

In order to help with scaling healing with more ilvls, I'd suggest one of the two new stats to reduce healing taken to yourself at the same time as doing the other purpose. Linking this with pvp power would be interesting.
Edited by Throez on 3/6/2012 7:35 PM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
9575
This has been an intersting discussion. Thank you for being so accomodating Daxx! However, I do also get one potential negative "take away" from all of this because of what is NOT said. It seems clear that there is no intent to resolve any of the current issues associated with current imbalances. All youve discussed is fixes "in MOP."

Is it Blizz's intent to simply stop all current attempts at resolving these existing issues and allow imbalances to persist until MOP's release? Is Blizz done trying to FIX known and acknowledged PvP issues until the next expansion?

Daxx, thank you again for speaking up for us and your responses.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10980
So basically its the same as Expertise in SWTOR.......
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