World of Warcraft®

03/06/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Daxxarri

That sounds great, honestly. I just wonder how committed you (Blizzard) is to this concept.

Well, we aren't particularly happy with the way some of these PvE burst trinkets (Cunning and Vial in particular) have worked out in PvP. Future trinkets aren't likely to follow the same model, though we do want to make trinkets powerful and interesting when we can. We can make PvP trinkets compelling by (just for example) doing things like offering proc or on-use effect to provide PvP Power, much as we already have equivalent PvE trinkets that proc strength or spell power.

If we still run into issues with out of control trinkets, then we have levers we can pull, like adjusting the internal cooldown, or reducing the spikiness of their output. Either way, allowing Cunning of the Cruel to be so dominant in PvP qualifies as a misstep.

Adjusting the internal cooldown and reducing spikiness didn't really matter for cunning; and while it helped with vial, the help did not arrive for quite some time. A system where you allow OP trinkets to exist, and then later nerf them (like what happened with vial) is not a good system. The idea should be to prevent the OP trinket from existing (or at least from being used in PvP) in the first place.

The problem with PvE trinkets is they are balanced for boss fights, they are not designed with PvP in mind. It's more or less guaranteed that if you make 50 trinkets in Mists that are designed for PvE, at least a couple of them are going to be dominant in PvP, because the item designers simply aren't considering PvP impact when the items are created. Any PvPer knew cunning of the cruel was going to be amazing for PvP the second they saw it; same for vial in cata, or DBW and DV in Wotlk, timbal's in BC, etc. It's been happening forever; it's really hard to believe that now all of a sudden blizzard is going to never design a PvE trinket that will be OP in PvP.

There are really only 3 ways to effectively address the problem.
1. Don't allow PvE trinkets to be equipped in arenas//rbgs//bgs//etc
2. Disable proc effects of PvE trinkets so that they do not work against other players, so the trinkets only give passive stats in PvP situations.
3. Offer equivalent PvP trinkets (ie: trinkets with dmg procs)

03/06/2012 07:52 PMPosted by Shadelan

If you want to do more damage to other players in Mists

Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?

If i recall correctly PvP Power also effects healing.

But the bigger part of the problem in pvp is not healers, unless a resto druid, and even then its the a problem with them its a problem with damage, and because damage is so HIGH they heal to slow.

PVP POWER = More Damage | Healing.

Your healing output also goes up.

03/06/2012 07:52 PMPosted by Shadelan

If you want to do more damage to other players in Mists

Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?

They said PvP power also increases the healing you do to other players such that an equal tier set of PvP gear will allow you to heal other players for more than an equal tier set of PvE gear.

Oh look, Daxxari is trying to deal with the same issues I had in my thread here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4139124551#6

I do have one question I would like clarified - but I'm not sure if you can.

You said the following earlier:

03/06/2012 04:46 PMPosted by Daxxarri

erhaps I misunderstood the question? I'm referring to gear, in general. If we were to compare introductory PvE gear with introductory PvP gear, the PvP gear would have a lower item level

Now this might have revealed your hand in mists by accident - or it might just be me being silly but, currently we only have two tiers of PVP gear (other than PvP 2.2k+ weapons) and 3 tiers of PVE gear.

What is "introductory" PvE and PvP gear? Are we comparing honour to raid finder? Honour to normal? What then is the standard PvP and PvE gear? Is conquest PvP gear equivalent to normal raid gear? How does heroic raid gear then fit into the equation? will we go back to ahving T2 PvP gear with higher stats?

Thanks.

Look all I was saying if they keep resil the same pve gear will no longer be in pvp. That is for sure if they make thease changes there will be more pve gear in pvp.

Wouldnt it just be easier to remove pve gear with awesome set bonuses ( i love using 2 piece tier 13 on my pally) in RATED pvp? Like an item level requirement? This system seems far too prone to flaws

03/06/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Daxxarri

PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.

Should we expect PvP will involve a lot of 10%-->100% healing and 100%-->10% damage then? I'm kinda confused as to why healers need to be able to heal more in pvp than they do healing a tank against a raid boss, unless damage is just going to continue to be ridiculous.

Or are you guys bringing back that whole "leaky bucket" plan that didn't work out with Cata? ;p

Daxx. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. But this is how I am interpreting this:

Say as a mage I have 10,000 Spell power. Hypothetically speaking lets say ice lance does 1 damage per 1 spell power (I know it doesn't work that way but work with me). That means it can hit for 10,000 damage and crit for 20,0000 damage.

Now against a Player with no pvp gear that means it will hit them for 7,000 damage and crit for 14,000. With the PvP Damage, this means it tacks on the damge. So say you have 2,000 PvP damage does this get factored in before or after PvP Defense? If it is before then that means the damaged hit would be 8,400 damage and 16,800 damage crit. Or is it after, where the player does 9,000 damage and 18,000 Crit?

In addition will the Defense be addative or multiplicative? If you have 20% PvP Defense will that mean you have 50% PvP total Defense or will it be multiplicative meaning we would have 36% PvP Defense?

Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?

PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.

This is exactly my point. Scaling makes healers too strong at the end tiers. Time alive is supposed to be roughly equal when balancing damage increases and mitigation increases with gear level. If healing increases past the minor health increase, then it's scaling faster than the damage/mitigation balance.

Here's my suggestion:
Balance the damage bonus and the mitigation bonuses (before reforge/gemming) so that time alive is the same as ilvl goes up. This may involve making mitigation slightly stronger.

Also, don't have healing scale with power/defense, it will already scale with the stat increases each ilvl. We only want the healing increased enough to make up for the additional stamina.

This is aimed at keeping combat last as long at the beginning of the expansion as at the end, so we don't end up with ridiculous spike damage and spike healing, and it feels more even across tiers.

Dax - Thank you for taking time to chat w/ the Arena community about PvE gear and stat changes coming in MoP.

It actually means a lot to some people to know that Blizzard is actually listening, and has some fixes in store for us.

Dax while you are here, you might tell the dev that healing will throw the dmg/mit cause def and power cancel each other out while healer keep getting stronger as we move to later tiers because nothing is reducing the healing the healer do like def does to power

03/06/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Daxxarri

Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?

PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.

Does this include shields and whatnot for Disc priests?

That all sounds well and good for pvp... but since Power is going to add more 'power' and healing against players... wont we see healers stacking this type of gear in pve scenarios as well? Or will you do something like: a PvE Staff gives + 700 Spell Power while a PvP Staff gives 500 Spell Power and 200 PvP Power?

03/06/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Daxxarri

In 5.0 a trinket with PvP stats should beat out a PvE trinket in PvP.

Depending on how you handle this, it could make the human racial reasonable. Or, it could make humans even more overpowered. Given the track record of said racial, my money's on the latter. You're welcome to surprise me.

Also unless you have special itemization of PvP weapons, which there's been zero mention of so far, PvE weapons will blow them out of the water because weapons gain far, far more power from ilvl than from any stat.

03/06/2012 08:23 PMPosted by Nostridamus

That all sounds well and good for pvp... but since Power is going to add more 'power' and healing against players... wont we see healers stacking this type of gear in pve scenarios as well? Or will you do something like: a PvE Staff gives + 700 Spell Power while a PvP Staff gives 500 Spell Power and 200 PvP Power?

Power and defense will be useless against NPCs.

Daxx that makes it seem like your trying to make pvp gear worse for pve while making pve gear similar to how it is now.

Perhaps I didn't explain clearly enough, if that's the impression you're getting.

Right now, if you walk into PvP using PvE gear, odds are there are some dudes that aren't wearing any resilience at all that you can probably blow up. On the same token, even when fighting players that have resilience, your raw output is higher compared to them, because you have more raw dps (or healing) stats on your PvE gear.

In Mists, everyone will be a bit tougher, so even fresh PvPers aren't as likely to get insta-gibbed, making pure PvE gear less useful straight out of the gate. At the higher end, a PvP geared player will both do more damage in PvP and take less damage in PvP than a player in similarly powerful PvE gear.

But you're STILL making the transition between the 2 very one sided. It's the EXACT same as today.

Today:

If I PvE, I can turn my Valor Points into Conquest and slowly gear straight into full PvP gear, every single slot filled with ilvl 397 pieces, the second best available, nearly top of the line gear from doing something entirely unrelated to PvP.

If I PvP, I can't convert Conquest Points into Valor, I have to BG my way to Honor Points, which I convert into Justice and buy 3 main outdated tier pieces, a crap ultra-outdated blue shoulders, helm and other slots. Barely capable of doing normal mode dungeons in the crap I get from convert PvP points.


Mists:

If I PvE, I get a 30% base resilience style gap, while I deal less damage in PvP, I still get a base reduction to smooth the transition and help with survivability.

If I PvP, I get absolutely nothing, my gear is loaded up with useless Power/Defense stats that have no effect in PvE and I don't get an equivalent 30% base PvE increase stat just from being level 90.


Once again, just like now, PvE players are given a smoothed transition into PvP, while PvPers are given literally next to nothing into their PvE transition.

03/06/2012 07:38 PMPosted by Slumpbuster

So basically its the same as Expertise in SWTOR.......

No, it's much closer to Valor/Vengeance in Rift.

http://community.riftgame.com/en/2011/08/31/pvp-gear-improvements-%E2%80%93-now-with-a-touch-of-vengeance/

SWTOR lol ... please.