PVE Gear

90 Draenei Shaman
13090
Daxx, I think it might be a good idea to consider removing the PvP defense stat. While the 30% base damage reduction against players partially mitigates the current problem, the difference between 30% and 50% is still massive.. it's not 20%. It's 28.5% (2/7).

Basically, for PvP defense to be compelling at all, it is going to end up causing the exact same problem Resilience does right now. Taking 28.5% less damage than an entry level player isn't a whole lot less than what we have now, and simply will not have the desired effect at later points in the expansion.

The entire PvP defense idea needs to go... it won't work well just like Resilience doesn't work well. It's effectively the same thing, though ever so slightly nerfed?

PvP gear, I think, really needs to be determined exclusively by PvP power, and player scaling in general just being less extreme than it was in Cataclysm. If, to do that, base player defense needs to be upped to 40 or 50%, or adjusted as time goes by in MoP, that's probably a much better solution than just having Resilience and all of its problems with a different tag attached.



If the problem then is that PvP gear has LESS survivability than PvE gear because of having lower stamina due to the lower item level, it should be pretty easy to adjust the stamina/armor values on PvP gear to be in line with the higher item level PvE gear, no? Especially with PvP power being a "free" stat?
Or how about a set bonus that brings their total stamina and armor in line with PvE gear?
Edited by Ashunera on 3/6/2012 8:44 PM PST
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90 Draenei Mage
6225
If they leave resil alone everything will be fine we all take are lumps getting pvp gear it's the way it goes. I have never herd any one complain that getting pvp gear was to hard or that I die to fast with out resil.

If anything this change makes it so pve gear continues to be a problem in pvp. Keeping resil the same as it is now will keep pve gear out of pvp.

I would rather have no pve gear in pvp then this stupid idea.

How about just giving a raid buff so when you go in to a raid/dungeon you get a 50% damage buff then nerf all damage by 30% from level 1 to 90. That would be a way better fix then to keep allowing pve items in pvp. Then keep resil the same just scale back the amount of resil on the gear.
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82 Human Priest
7170
Daxx, I think it might be a good idea to consider removing the PvP defense stat. While the 30% base damage reduction against players partially mitigates the current problem, the difference between 30% and 50% is still massive.. it's not 20%. It's 28.5% (2/7).

Basically, for PvP defense to be compelling at all, it is going to end up causing the exact same problem Resilience does right now. Taking 28.5% less damage than an entry level player isn't a whole lot less than what we have now, and simply will not have the desired effect at later points in the expansion.

The entire PvP defense idea needs to go... it won't work well just like Resilience doesn't work well. It's effectively the same thing, though ever so slightly nerfed?

PvP gear, I think, really needs to be determined exclusively by PvP power, and player scaling in general just being less extreme than it was in Cataclysm. If, to do that, base player defense needs to be upped to 40 or 50%, or adjusted as time goes by in MoP, that's probably a much better solution than just having Resilience and all of its problems with a different tag attached.


Absolutely this. The difference between fresh PvPer without the gear and full geared is still large enough to cause the exact same issue with resilience today.

You guys keep pushing Arena as competitive and as an esport, you need to learn that for competitive, skill based playing, you need to let player skill be the determinant factor in a match up, differences in gear just completely counter the concept of skill based competitive play.

It's just like SC2 making you units do more damage and take less damage the higher you bracket is.

Gear tiering and progression works for PvE because it's a tiered difficulty setup, PvP is not. Stop using the same gearing ideals for it, or you'll always end up with the resilience issue, and you desire for competitive Arena will never be truly achieved.
Edited by Aywen on 3/6/2012 8:49 PM PST
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4 Gnome Rogue
0
cba reading all of these replies but this is clearly a pve favored change. i'm not going to go cry about it, because depending on implementation it could be okay. in a just world, however, pve gear would be banned from pvp like pvp gear is banned from pve. my only reasoning for that statement though is "if i can't have it, neither can you", which I think is even slightly valid. throwing those numbers out there was so ill-conceived.
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03/06/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?


PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.


I understand your team probably doesn't have the specifics nailed down yet, but let me give you an issue I see coming: how to tell whether the player is doing PvE content or PvP. I imagine that an easy way to tell is whether the player is flagged or not (players are unflagged upon entering a dungeon or raid and cannot be flagged while in one in the current system, fitting perfectly). Here's an example:

Angell is a Priest who only PvPs most of the time. Angell's guild is about to do a World Boss (making a return with MoP) on their PvE server. Angell tells the raid to flag themselves in order for her to heal just as well as a Priest in PvE gear. Would this be an exploit? Would you have a system in place that is more than just a flagged/not-flagged sensor?
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90 Draenei Priest
9485
03/06/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Daxxarri
PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.


Will PvP Power affect absorbs?

As a Disc Priest, I'm very worried that with this new stat, absorbs will become less and less effective as people gear up, and healers that rely on straight up healing will outshine those that rely on absorbs.
Edited by Ayani on 3/6/2012 9:01 PM PST
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Can you gem for PvP Power/Defense? If so, at least for power, then why would I ever gem for anything not-PvP power?
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85 Human Warrior
9045
Whew, for a moment here I thought I was actually going to return when MoP comes out. But this post seals it. I'm not returning for MoP. If they can't seem to separate PvP and PvE to the point where they're making it even worse than before, then this game has finally met its end.
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60 Draenei Death Knight
0
So let me see if I got this straight:

PVP Defense: reduces damage taken from players.

PVP Power: increases damage done to players, unmitigated by PVP Defense.

Healers: will now track the damage sources for all friendly players to determine if their heals should be affected by PVP Power?

All this just seems so unnecessarily convoluted. Especially that last one. How will it work in world PVP and places like Alterac Valley?
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
14580
I have a concern with scaling as it relates to PvP Power and PvP Defense vs. wearing the higher item level PvE gear.

It seems to me that the difference between PvP and PvE gear in PvE will always be linear---kind of like how someone in Firelands gear can still do content in Dragon Soul now.

However, when you flip it around, the PvP situation seems like it will become progressively worse for the PvE player. As each season goes on, the % will go higher and higher for Power and Defense, making the PvE equipment progressively weaker.

The difference in item level relatively speaking probably won't change much, however---this means that PvE players won't be doing a much higher % of overall damage.

Wouldn't it make sense to also put PvP Power on PvE gear, so that PvE gear still maintains a slight damage neutral relative to people who are ALSO gaining PvP Defense?
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90 Human Priest
9535
I think what people are misunderstanding about the PvP vs PvE is simply the fact that in PvP gear against someone in PvP gear you're going to be doing something like 100:100 ratio of extra damage vs damage reduction. While the player in the PvE gear attacking the player in PvP gear will have a damage of something like 85:100. These are just examples, but it illustrates that having that PvP gear against someone in PvP gear will have a better damage output while the player in PvE will only be doing 85% (example number) of the damage the PvP geared person would be doing.

To touch a step further using the baseline 30% damage reduction, a player in PvP gear has enough PvP power to deal an extra 30% damage against enemy players while the next guy has only PvE gear on. The person in the PvE gear is doing 30% less damage. Where the difference between PvE and PvP comes into play is how much more dps does the player in PvE have to do in order to overcome the 30% base barrier. If you're in enough PvP gear to negate the 30%, we'll say you're doing 750dps on a target dummy while the player in full PvE is doing a baseline of 1000dps. The PvP'er will do more damage to other players as the PvE'er will have a 30% damage reduction to worry about. (30% x 1000 = 300) Giving the PvE'er 700dps, 50 less than the PvP geared player.
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90 Troll Druid
0
In response to PvP power increasing healing done to players?, is it possible for a tank to stack PvP power in order to obtain a healing bonus for PvE purposes, could it be possible that a tank would become extremely easy for them to keep alive or does PvP power have a cap or DR when it involves healing done?
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90 Pandaren Rogue
9990
03/06/2012 02:24 PMPosted by Daxxarri
If they keep comming out with expansions the pve problem will take care of its self.


I feel like I should take some time to better relay the development team's intentions when it comes to how PvP stats will work in Mists.

There are two important changes to PvP itemization coming:

1. We're splitting Resilience into an offensive and defensive component.
2. All players will have at least 30% damage reduction versus other players.

If you want to do more damage to other players in Mists, you have two options. You can get better PvE gear with more offensive stats, or you can get better PvP gear with slightly smaller offensive stats built in(because PvP gear is lower item level), but which will also give you more damage against players specifically. In today's game, stacking PvE gear is really the only way to do more damage to other players in PvP since Resilience only supplies a defensive bonus. These are completely made up numbers, but imagine PvE gear is 100% effective in PvE and 75% effective in PvP. PvP gear is 50% effective in PvE, but 100% effective in PvP -- despite its lower item level, it wins out over PvE gear when used for its intended purpose.

Here are some examples:

Ders the rogue: wears PvE gear.
Jillian the hunter: wears PvP gear.
In Cataclysm PvE, Ders does much better damage than Jillian in PvE, because her PvP gear “wastes” stat budget on Resilience.
In Cataclysm PvP, Ders does better damage than Jillian for the same reason. However, when Jillian hits Ders, he doesn’t mitigate her damage at all. The result is high burst damage on both sides.
In Mists PvE, Ders still does better damage than Jillian, because his higher ilevel PvE gear has more offensive stats. The difference is smaller however because Jillian’s PvP stats aren't part of the item budget.

The item level difference is the main distinction.

In Mists PvP, they both do about the same amount of raw damage to each other, with a slight edge for Jillian. Her power stat offsets Ders's PvE stats. Jillian takes less damage because of her PvP Defense (let’s say it’s 50% damage reduction), but Ders still has 30% damage reduction innately, so he doesn’t blow up either. Again the difference is smaller. If Ders wants to get serious about PvP, he’s eventually going to want PvP gear, and Jillian will want more PvE gear to do PvE.

Another way to think about it is that we are pushing PvP and PvE gear closer together with two changes: A player in PvE gear always has some base PvP defense (it's like a little PvP gear for free). A player in PvP gear can do more damage and healing than today in PvP because of the new Power stat (it's like a little PvE gear for free).


But will we get to wear a Bear Coat in PvP?
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90 Draenei Shaman
13090
PvP defense, just like resilience, is a terrible stat. Not terrible in its effectiveness - it's borderline too vital - but terrible in the negative impacts it has on game balance.


PvP will NEVER feel good as long as PvP defense or Resilience exists. If players need 40% damage reduction, they should all just simply have 40% damage reduction, and gear upgrades improving your damage against players/healing done to players is all that is necessary.

Please just abolish Resilience/PvP defense. PvP power is enough on its own to make PvP gear more compelling for PvP than PvE gear is. PvP defense just adds a very unnecessary layer of complexity that is very difficult to balance.
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85 Night Elf Druid
5745
03/06/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?


PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.


While this more or less indirectly agrees with what I posted (pvp power affects healing done in pvp situations) what is going to stop it from affecting healing done in pve situations? How is the game going to intuitively know that a player is actively participating in healing pve versus pvp?

If I'm in AV or IoC, and we have pulled the boss, how am I going to determine that pvp gear is actually better for healing in a boss fight like that, when there are players from the other team present trying to keep us from downing their leader?

If we are participating in a city raid, how is pvp gear going to benefit more than pve gear for healing players if we are shooting Thrall in the face? I may be over thinking this a bit, but I am just trying to put this change into perspectives that may require me to be healing against player damage one second, and NPC damage the next.

I am not quite sure how to clearly define which type of gear is better in those situations, and better yet, how to make sure players are still successful in their endeavors no matter which type of gear they are ultimately supposed to wear.

I know that currently, a City Leader fight prefers pve gear over pvp gear, and that it's somewhat difficult to pull it off in pvp gear, unless you are sporting a huge group of players. Likewise, bosses in IoC and AV are tuned to be killable with the majority of the group being pvp geared (except maybe tanks and healers).

Then of course there's wold pvp situations, where a player might be in the middle of a quest (dailies or something), where his pve gear is clearly superior, and then along comes an enemy player to completely destroy him because he's not gaining the same advantages from pve gear in pvp.



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90 Draenei Shaman
13090
Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?


PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.


To be fair, it probably shouldnt. How will it determine which kind of combat you're in? If not done properly, PvP gear will be the only way to heal in PvE. "Healing other players" applies to all situations. If anything, it should simply act as a Mortal Strike pierce stat, making healing reduction effects less effective. I could see that working, but arbitrarily gaining and losing a healing boost just because an enemy player entered or left combat while fighting a PvP boss seems really really weird, but it certainly can't be active in PvE content, and should always be active in PvP content.
PvP power could also lower the duration of CC effects for healers only instead, I could see that working as well, I just don't think a pure survival or pure healing throughput based bonus from PvP power will work well at all for healers.
The only other thing I could see working is basically having PvP power as a healer work identical to a Paladin's mastery - but only apply to damage from other players.
Edited by Ashunera on 3/7/2012 1:06 AM PST
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85 Human Rogue
MVP
2210
03/06/2012 02:25 PMPosted by Schleichend
Holy !@#$, a blue in the PvP forums.



03/06/2012 02:25 PMPosted by Schleichend
Holy !@#$, a blue in the PvP forums.

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90 Orc Warrior
9575
Again, this discussion is of future (date unknown and unannounced) expansion PvP fixes. This does not fix "the now." Is Blizzard done with making any tweaks, fixes, orchanges to correct the current PvP imbalances as identified and acknowledged by both Players and Blizzard? Is it Blizzard's decision to allow current issues to persist until MOP is released?
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