PVE Gear

90 Blood Elf Paladin
17020
But you're STILL making the transition between the 2 very one sided. It's the EXACT same as today.

Today:

If I PvE, I can turn my Valor Points into Conquest and slowly gear straight into full PvP gear, every single slot filled with ilvl 397 pieces, the second best available, nearly top of the line gear from doing something entirely unrelated to PvP.

If I PvP, I can't convert Conquest Points into Valor, I have to BG my way to Honor Points, which I convert into Justice and buy 3 main outdated tier pieces, a crap ultra-outdated blue shoulders, helm and other slots. Barely capable of doing normal mode dungeons in the crap I get from convert PvP points.


Mists:

If I PvE, I get a 30% base resilience style gap, while I deal less damage in PvP, I still get a base reduction to smooth the transition and help with survivability.

If I PvP, I get absolutely nothing, my gear is loaded up with useless Power/Defense stats that have no effect in PvE and I don't get an equivalent 30% base PvE increase stat just from being level 90.


Once again, just like now, PvE players are given a smoothed transition into PvP, while PvPers are given literally next to nothing into their PvE transition.



why dont you just do both PvP and PvE n get your gear for both at the same time?

lol

then you wont have to "transition"
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100 Night Elf Druid
17000
Personally, I don't care if the solution is that we strap honey badgers to our gear as long as the solution ends up allowing Blizzard to "balance" pvp without having to screw with our effectiveness in pve.
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100 Blood Elf Hunter
14585
03/06/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Daxxarri
PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.


But will that run into the problem where a healer can bring a player to 100% health in just two or three spell casts in PVP? Will this be solved in other ways like PVP healers not having as much mana regen?

What about 'mortal strike' debuffs? Back when they were 10% I found them extremely useless in PVE, heroic Throne of Tides in particular when interrupts could still miss, it was very frustrating when I am only taking a 50k-ish heal down to a mere 45k heal when an interrupt is late or misses. I noticed that most mysteriously lack values in the talent calculator at this time so are the numbers still being debated? (As far as I can tell only rogues have a number for their mortal strike; 25%)
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90 Human Priest
11840


why dont you just do both PvP and PvE n get your gear for both at the same time?

lol

then you wont have to "transition"


The answer obviously lies in time investment. Not everyone has enough time to put into the game for both at once. And not everyone want to either.

Now Daxx's words are worrying me a bit. For the sake of a better understanding, i'll use a comparison between Honor and Justice gear. From what you say Daxx, a player geared in Justice, that is, heroic dungeon PvE gear, would deal just slightly less damage than a player geared in Honor. On the other hand, the Justice player would take more dmg since he would have less defense. That makes perfect sense.

I hope i'm reading too much into what you said, but i got the feeling the power (not the stat) disparity between the 2 types of gear isn't very high. If that is the case, I fear one would feel compelled to do both Pve and PvP to gear up faster, even if they end up replacing pieces with optimal ones soon after. I thought this was something you guys wanted to avoid. I thought the goal was simply to "help" the transition.

Guess only Beta will bring about real answers to this.
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90 Tauren Death Knight
12475
Here's the way i see it (keep in mind im only an average player, no rated pvp, no heroic raids, all calculator static work). Keep in mind this is all hypothetical and none of these numbers might come out the way intended because we have no scaling factors to work with.

PvP -DPS:18,000
PvE -DPS:20,000 (10% gain due to higher ilvl/stats)

PvP -Mitigation (pvp defense): 30% base+18% gear (first season stats i believe)
PvE -Mitigation (pvp defense): 30% base+ 0% gear (no pvp gear)

so right off the top take 48% off of the PVE players DPS and place the adjusted stats as
PvP -DPS:12600 (30% pve mitigation hits this)
PvE -DPS:10400 (48% pvp mitigation hits this)

Well... lookie there now that the pve player has the 30% mitigation hes not getting blown up, but he is still getting out DPS'ed in a PvP context. This is without adding in the pvp power stat though.

PvP- PvP Power: 18% (guessing the same scaling factor as pvp defense)
PvE- pvp power: 0% (again no pvp gear)

Now your new DPS numbers look something like (assuming it doesnt act like penetration)
PvP -DPS:14868
PvE -DPS:10400
DPS difference: 4468

If it acts like penetration the numbers are a bit more skewed.
PvP DPS: 15840
PvE DPS:10400
DPS difference: 5440

In either case though because of the base mitigation and the addition to pvp power, the pvper should more then likely win out against the pve player, but the gap is closer. Just remember, these are numbers inside of a vacuum, only pulled from conjecture to make a small example. In the current resilience situation the numbers are even further from the example.

PvP DPS: 18000 (no pve mitigation)
PvE DPS: 10870 (4800 resil in current day, 45.65% mitigation)
DPS difference: 7130

It looks to me like blizzard is once again trying to tone down damage in pvp, and this just might work. Without scaling factors though this is all theory.

In regards to burst trinkets from PVE to PVP, under the new system they'd do at the very least, 30% less damage and in this conjecture, 48% less damage. Though honestly i'd rather blizz null and void those trinkets effect in pvp, it sucks seeing my big pve numbers disappear on my rogue. PvPers also gain a stat to reforge (im hoping) a second valuable stat because their pvp stats allocate nothing in the ilvl, and a little more (hopefully) variety in their gear stat picks.

Random math is random, nothing has been set in stone, and i am missing out on some morning coffee, so later peeps.

DK out

(in before "you never pvp'ed so shut up!")

Edit: got the coffee.... and im starting to think others might be right, total effect is likely going to be null. The only way to control it otherwise would be hotfix patches on gear and the likes, as in "rogues PvP power on gloves decreased by 25, shaman pvp power on boots increased by 30, pallies pvp defense on helm reduced by 200 because they can live too long!" Even then, as pvp gear gets better the barrier to entry will get higher, likely to the point that even with crafted pvp gear floating around, you will still die, not blown up in 2 GCD's but die nonetheless.
Edited by Darthkodo on 3/7/2012 6:22 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9465
Here's the problem I see with this. It seems like Higher end players, at least initially, might be required to to farm PVP gear to fill in holes in their PVE gear. Unless I am missing something with identical (PVE-type) stat budgets, but lower than raid quality gear, after your have cleared T-14 week one your going to be forced to farm an honor set of gear to round out your set.

Also, is this first new PVP tier going to be a higher Ilevel than gear available in the first tier of dungeons. If so wouldn't this make it smarter to farm only honor gear and completely bypass doing heroic dungeons?

Don't get me wrong I think PVP needs a change to encourage more people to do it, but players are always going to take the path of least resistance with regards to gearing their characters and I foresee a major flaw with this system.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
19305
03/06/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?


PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.


Healers pretty much always heal players. How will this actually be implemented?

Is it based on target? So PVP power could be a good PVE stat.

Is it based on zone? So then PVP power doesn't help in world PVP?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
11880
03/07/2012 05:46 AMPosted by Ranshiin
PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.


But will that run into the problem where a healer can bring a player to 100% health in just two or three spell casts in PVP? Will this be solved in other ways like PVP healers not having as much mana regen?

What about 'mortal strike' debuffs? Back when they were 10% I found them extremely useless in PVE, heroic Throne of Tides in particular when interrupts could still miss, it was very frustrating when I am only taking a 50k-ish heal down to a mere 45k heal when an interrupt is late or misses. I noticed that most mysteriously lack values in the talent calculator at this time so are the numbers still being debated? (As far as I can tell only rogues have a number for their mortal strike; 25%)


From what I understand, and from what Blizzard has stated, they had some goals for Mists of Pandaria PvP when they started developing. One such goal was to make healing in PvP more fun, and allow healers to actually heal. The way they planned on doing that was to make it so that defeating healers means making them use inefficient spells and run out of mana; NOT to burn them down, CC them repeatedly, or stunlock them to death. Another goal was to make casters more capable of casting spells in PvP, so spell interrupts are going to be far less spammable, and far more strategic than they are today.
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90 Draenei Mage
6225
I am sorry but if I play arena week after week to get my gear why should some dude who gets carried through raid finder or does a few heroics get better gear and run in to pvp and crush people.

This 30% damage reduction will just put more pve gear in pvp not less. Why would I not bring pve trinket or weapons in to pvp at that point if I already have pvp gear and half pve I would still have good damage reduction but I will get the 2 set bounse or the weapon or trink benifit.

If the goal of this is to get pve gear out of pvp it wont happen there will just be more people using pve gear.
Edited by Freezebag on 3/7/2012 7:18 AM PST
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03/07/2012 07:09 AMPosted by Azreluna


PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.


Healers pretty much always heal players. How will this actually be implemented?

Is it based on target? So PVP power could be a good PVE stat.

Is it based on zone? So then PVP power doesn't help in world PVP?


I can see the implementation being as simple as "PvP Power/Defense has no effect in Dungeons/Raids".

There, works in all PvP (world, bg, rbg, arenas, duels) and no PvE (with the caveat that world bosses are no longer a thing... which seemed to be the case anyway).
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100 Blood Elf Priest
11880

Healers pretty much always heal players. How will this actually be implemented?

Is it based on target? So PVP power could be a good PVE stat.

Is it based on zone? So then PVP power doesn't help in world PVP?


The Blues already answered this. They said that PvP stats wouldn't work against PvE monsters in environments such as dungeons and raids. I would imagine that PvP Power which increases healing on players requires that the player simply be in a non-dungeon or non-raid zone. To give a current example:

Let's say you are a healer. You have PvP gear with PvP power on it. You are standing Durotar, dueling somebody. Your PvP gear will prevent damage done by the person you are dueling, and increase direct damage and healing output on your part. Now, say your Dungeon Finder queue pops, and you enter Well of Eternity. Your PvP gear will still have good enough stats to run Heroics, and be a decent healer, but you no longer heal for AS MUCH because you are in a dungeon, and your PvP Power stat is not working.

Does that make sense?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
11880

I can see the implementation being as simple as "PvP Power/Defense has no effect in Dungeons/Raids".

There, works in all PvP (world, bg, rbg, arenas, duels) and no PvE (with the caveat that world bosses are no longer a thing... which seemed to be the case anyway).


Even if they bring back World Bosses, you would still need PvP gear to be better than PvE gear for those particular fights: especially on PvP servers where the enemy could attack you during the boss fight. So it would indeed be an exception to the rule for healers.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9380

Ders the rogue: wears PvE gear.
Jillian the hunter: wears PvP gear.


What if Ders and his friends set up Jillian on a blind date with a Juggalo?
Edited by Howdoing on 3/7/2012 7:51 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
11880
I am sorry but if I play arena week after week to get my gear why should some dude who gets carried through raid finder or does a few heroics get better gear and run in to pvp and crush people.

This 30% damage reduction will just put more pve gear in pvp not less. Why would I not bring pve trinket or weapons in to pvp at that point if I already have pvp gear and half pve I would still have good damage reduction but I will get the 2 set bounse or the weapon or trink benifit.

If the goal of this is to get pve gear out of pvp it wont happen there will just be more people using pve gear.


First of all, a person in PvE gear will NOT be able to crush somebody in full PvP gear. You also seem to misunderstand the intention of this, and the ultimate goal. So let me break it down for you using current items for understanding.

Right Now:
Let's say that you, Freezebag, Lv.85 Draenei Mage, own a full set of Arena PvP gear.
The average item level of your PvP gear is, for this example, 403.
Let's say also, for the sake of argument, that you also own a full set of PvE gear.
Again, for example, the average item level of this gear is 397.

As it stands, here is how your gear works. Your PvP gear is higher in item level because of the Resilience stat, which costs item budget to have on that gear. As a result, your PvP gear is slightly higher item level than your PvE gear. But your PvP gear is not good in PvE, because it wastes item budget on Resilience, instead of adding to crit, haste, hit, mastery, etc. So your PvP gear SUCKS in PvE. Also, while you do 20-30% more damage with your PvE gear due to all the extra crits, haste, mastery, etc., you die 100% faster in PvP because you have no Resilience. So your PvE gear SUCKS in PvP.

In Mists of Pandaria:
You, Freezebag, Lv.85 Draenei Mage, own a full set of Arena PvP gear.
The average item level of your PvP gear is, for this example, 384.
Let's say also, for the sake of argument, that you also own a full set of PvE gear.
Again, for example, the average item level of this gear is 397.

As it stands, here is how your gear NOW works. Your PvP gear is lower in item level because of the Resilience stat being gone, which allows for more PvE stats for the item budget to put on the gear. As a result, your PvP gear is slightly lower item level than your PvE gear, but you have actually GAINED stats such as haste, crit, and mastery. So your PvP gear NO LONGER SUCKS in PvE. Also, while you do 10-15% more damage with your PvE gear due to the slightly higher item level you no longer die 100% faster in PvP because Resilience is now a baseline stat that gives everybody 30% damage reduction from other players. So your PvE gear NO LONGER SUCKS in PvP.

Now, that is just to allow players in raid gear an easier time acquiring PvP gear initially. And it makes it so that fully geared PvP players can raid and gain PvE gear initially. PvE gear is still better in PvE, and PvP gear is still better in PvP. And here is why:

The "PvP Power" and "PvP Defense" stats will be FREE from the item budget. So, while your PvP gear may be lower item level, and you do 10-15% less damage in PvE with that gear, you might do 30-40% MORE damage than PvE gear in PvP. Because you are gaining a free Power stat in PvP. So overall, you will NEVER do more damage against enemy players in your full set of PvE gear, even though it is higher item level.
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85 Human Death Knight
8455
The whole MOP PvP approach sounds very familiar. It was implemented almost wholesale in Rift by Trion about a year ago. It's kind of ironic that the game developers of the World of Warcraft would implement a solution to the eternal problem of balancing PvE/PvP by looking at what another gaming company did to prevent their game from having the same problems as the WORLD OF WARCRAFT! While that is an intelligent approach to the problem (if it corrects the problem), it does seem like a vague form of intellectual plagiarism. Ofcourse this does follow the trend for MOP (Kungfu Panda, Hutball from Starwars, Battleground ideas from Team Fortress 2, etc.).

But getting back to it..... It actually does work. Steal the idea of levels of pvp gear that require trading in the previous level of gear to upgrade and pvp skill ranks from the same game you stole the gear/stat changes from and you'll have a reasonably solid result that will make your PvPer's happy until your "Titan Project" MMO is completed.

Peace!
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
11050
what's the point of splitting it into 2 stats? why not have 1 stat (lets call it resilience) that does both things.
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The whole MOP PvP approach sounds very familiar. It was implemented almost wholesale in Rift by Trion about a year ago. It's kind of ironic that the game developers of the World of Warcraft would implement a solution to the eternal problem of balancing PvE/PvP by looking at what another gaming company did to prevent their game from having the same problems as the WORLD OF WARCRAFT! While that is an intelligent approach to the problem (if it corrects the problem), it does seem like a vague form of intellectual plagiarism. Ofcourse this does follow the trend for MOP (Kungfu Panda, Hutball from Starwars, Battleground ideas from Team Fortress 2, etc.).

But getting back to it..... It actually does work. Steal the idea of levels of pvp gear that require trading in the previous level of gear to upgrade and pvp skill ranks from the same game you stole the gear/stat changes from and you'll have a reasonably solid result that will make your PvPer's happy until your "Titan Project" MMO is completed.

Peace!


Intellectual plagiarism?

If anyone is getting their ideas stolen here, it's me, having made this suggestion (although, my version had Power and Defense based on the singular stat Resilience) in s4 when Rogues were warglaives'ing my face off.

druidify.blogspot.com

I'm not digging through my posts. I'm just glad that Blizz is planning an implementation that makes sense, whether they got it from me, Rift, or someone came up with it in a meeting. As long as the end result is a more balanced playing field for PvP-geared PvP'ers, then we're golden.

what's the point of splitting it into 2 stats? why not have 1 stat (lets call it resilience) that does both things.


I assume that it's because the PvP trinkets will exist as they do now, but instead of a Resilience trinket with an Agility on-use/proc, it will be a PvP Defense trinket with a PvP Power on-use/proc. This would allow the stats that matter in PvP to scale at a rate that beats out the normal dps/healing stats (int/str/agi).

What will be interesting is whether we can end up reforging for PvP Power/Defense.
Edited by Reygahnci on 3/7/2012 8:18 AM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
7065
Daxx I have one simple question, why doesn't Blizz just eliminate pve gear in RATED pvp? It seems like such a simple and easy solution, you wouldn't have to worry about how pve items effect pvp at all. Nobody cares about random bg's they can use their pve gear to get honor all they want, but it would bring a level playing field in RATED pvp, which is what everyone cares about. Can you please expand on the blizz thinking on why they even let pve items into rated pvp?
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90 Night Elf Druid
11225
03/06/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Daxxarri
PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.


Can you further clarify? The reason I am asking is relating to world PVP. How do you manage to address this? or are you guys not prepared to discuss the exact mechanic/technology behind this yet?

For example: If you allow pvp power to affect healing on players in the open world, people would use this while doing dailies and questing, though this is not game breaking, it does end up giving pvp gear advantage in questing and doing PVE content. Now if you only allow this to players who are PVP flagged, this would create an issue on PVE realms possibly.

Anyways, just wondering if you have any specifics for this yet. Very interesting and I don't mean to suck up but I gotta give you commendations for taking the heat but still sticking with us answering our questions.
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