PVE Gear

03/07/2012 09:06 AMPosted by Strågo
PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.


Can you further clarify? The reason I am asking is relating to world PVP. How do you manage to address this? or are you guys not prepared to discuss the exact mechanic/technology behind this yet?

For example: If you allow pvp power to affect healing on players in the open world, people would use this while doing dailies and questing, though this is not game breaking, it does end up giving pvp gear advantage in questing and doing PVE content. Now if you only allow this to players who are PVP flagged, this would create an issue on PVE realms possibly.

Anyways, just wondering if you have any specifics for this yet. Very interesting and I don't mean to suck up but I gotta give you commendations for taking the heat but still sticking with us answering our questions.


Let me summarize for you:

Strago was the worst character in FFVI, you should feel ashamed for your name.

<3 Reygahnci
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85 Human Warlock
8455
03/07/2012 08:08 AMPosted by Gorechilde
While that is an intelligent approach to the problem (if it corrects the problem), it does seem like a vague form of intellectual plagiarism.


people have suggesting the solution presented in this thread for a while and before rift was released. not sure what the exact system used in rift is, but I'm certain it's been talked about for years around the PVP forums.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8840
What I still don't get... If defense is a base stat, then added to gear (which basically just lowers the initial PvP damage), but then PvP gear is going to add offense to PvP geared players, doesn't that only hurt the guy in PvE gear who is starting to farm a PvP set even more than it does now?

All it seems like this is doing is making it harder for the new guy to get started, while building in a way to counter the initial defense for people who are already geared. So basically, because of the offense stat, the new player in PvE gear who is starting to farm a set isn't going to have the same defense later in the game when he finally hits level 90 during the second season of the expansion.

It seems really counterproductive to do it this way.
Edited by Aldiara on 3/7/2012 9:38 AM PST
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Here is my 2 cents:

IMO all previous models worked initially, but failed once gears scale up. To be specific, upon each expansion, there are cases where some classes/specs do too much burst, which can be hot fixed by turning the damage into DoT. However, as the expansion continues, balancing became harder and harder because there are classes/specs that you can't turn its damage into DoT, which has become the new burst, while the ones that had been converted into DoTs become non-competitive. Eventually burst will get out of control due to scaling and people who need to stack resil just to not get killed under 5 seconds. However, since resil is balanced based upon PvP gears, so it does not matter how they stack resil, they can still be popped by people with mix of PvE gears like PvE legendary weps and trinkets.

The other outcome is that you will have healers that are simply unkillable and dot classes who stack resil to its max. Having healers running around the court ain't no fun for both parties. In all previous models, balance is always between class/spec becoming too burst oriented while having others that just won't die.

The 30% flat def is not going to fix this problem as you will need to balance it so that people can kill others. However, as gear scale up, the same problems will arise. At the start of the expansion you will have hour long battle as healers can top off members easily, making battles last for hours. Eventually, you will end up having people being popped in under 5 seconds again.

Itemization is only one piece of the puzzle as abilities are the dominate factor. The key is throughput dmg and healing. DPS should not be able to burst down people and healer should not be able to top off people instantly either. PvP defense should have a ramp up time and both healing and damage done should have a throughput control. Each dps ability should apply a short, but stackable buff, lets call it sideeffects, to the receiver and healing ability should apply a stackable debuff to the receiver in PvP so unecessary burst can be eliminated. The ramp up time of Sideeffects can be reduce depending on PvP gears offensive stats, while defensive stat is to reduce the ramp up time of the defensive buff.

This way, dot class such as aff lock can't simply dot everyone as this will keep defensive buff of enemies up at all time, while melee no longer required to seat on prays continuously as that will also keep defensive buff up. On the other hand, dps will be able to unload huge amount of damage on players will doesn't have defensive buff ramp up yet. Normal CC, immobility and slow should automatically ramp up the def buff while stun does not(stunned target who got attacked will get def buff from the damage received).
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85 Human Paladin
7990
As I have asked in Arena forums but of course, successful trolls are successful, but never got any good reasons.

Why do we skip adding so much complexity to the matter, but just make pvp work in pvp environment and pve in pve environment. AKA, no pve can be equipped in rated bgs or arena (reg bgs are excluded).

The idea sounds amazing and I like the idea, but lets face it, due to the history of pvp imbalance, class scaling and various other aspects of poor pvp mechanics, this will just add more fuel to the, already large, fire that is in place.

This is just getting too complex for my liking and I feel it won't work and back to step 1 on the expansion after MoP.
Edited by Paliloc on 3/7/2012 10:45 AM PST
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13 Worgen Warrior
0
03/06/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?


PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.


How exactly would that happen? Will it increase healing done only when in BG's/Arenas? Given the recent announcements about Mists of Pandaria that mentions that one of it's goals is to bring Outdoor/World PVP back into the scene, can we rest assured that such PVP gear will be useful when engaging in Outdoor/World PVP?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5005
03/07/2012 11:55 AMPosted by Lothi
Players who invest time, and are successful in raids should be rewarded accordingly.


Players who invest time, and are successful in Arena/RBG's shouldn't be punished because a raid weapon or trinket can RNG-win a match.
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03/07/2012 11:55 AMPosted by Lothi
Players who invest time, and are successful in raids should be rewarded accordingly.


They are rewarded accordingly - they invested time and were successful at PvE, so they will get a reward (weapon, armor, trinket, etc) that will aid them in PvE.
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90 Undead Rogue
9050
03/06/2012 08:24 PMPosted by Throez
Power and defense will be useless against NPCs.


I dont mean healing / damaging NPCs i mean healing tanks or just other players in a raid. What makes PvP Power on healing gear less desirable than what pve gear offers? (Since they keep saying that PvP Power will do more against/for players) And visa versa if PvP Power isnt going to be as good asn spell power on PvE gear what is going to stop healers from just sticking with their pve gear in pvp scenarios?
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I dont mean healing / damaging NPCs i mean healing tanks or just other players in a raid. What makes PvP Power on healing gear less desirable than what pve gear offers? (Since they keep saying that PvP Power will do more against/for players) And visa versa if PvP Power isnt going to be as good asn spell power on PvE gear what is going to stop healers from just sticking with their pve gear in pvp scenarios?


1) PvP Power will not work in Dungeons or Raids.
2) PvP Gear will be a lower iLvL than PvE Gear.
3) In a raid, the guy in PvE healer gear will heal for more than a guy in PvP gear.
4) In PvP (arenas, bgs, rbgs, duels, etc) the guy in PvP healer gear will heal for more than a guy in PvE gear.

How is this hard?
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Community Manager
Should we expect PvP will involve a lot of 10%-->100% healing and 100%-->10% damage then? I'm kinda confused as to why healers need to be able to heal more in pvp than they do healing a tank against a raid boss, unless damage is just going to continue to be ridiculous.


We want healing to scale with PvP Power, but that doesn't mean that bonus healing has to scale at the same rate as bonus damage from PvP Power. Again, we have levers we can adjust to make PvP feel good.

I have a concern that the model you're suggesting won't be able to deliver on the two-fold promise of keeping 'PvE gear out of competitive PvP' and 'reducing the barrier of entry.'


That's an understandable concern, and it's true that as gear gets beefier tier by tier, it gets harder for new players to step into the fray, but even then, the innate defenses coming in Mists should help a lot. We're also aiming for the power curve from un-geared to geared level 90 player to be flatter than it currently is at 85, which should also help.

We want the PvP community to grow, so at least one of the goals here is to let players cross over more easily into PvP than they can today. That said, we're not expecting a just-dinged level 90 player to step into a 5.3 BG and smash face against dudes in stacked PvP gear. I'm pretty sure that's not what you guys want either. We do want someone who's moderately geared to have a much better chance in Mists than he or she does in today's PvP environment, though.
Edited by Daxxarri on 3/7/2012 1:26 PM PST
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90 Undead Priest
6600
I really do wanna thank you for all your time, and I believe I'm about to ask a question that has been asked before but I really want a specific answer.

DBW back in wrath compares easily the Cunning and Vial right now, it's not the stats that make them so interesting, its the procs. Do you really think that using this new system people will actually prefer a (probable) small % of damage over a proc like ones we've seen in the past?

That being said, is there any chance PvP balance changes could be adjusted sooner in the future? You talk about adjusting the values on PvP %, but honestly, we currently only see changes like that every month or so, where other games like LoL (Full PvP Game, so I guess this is a unfair comparison) release them every 2 weeks.
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90 Tauren Paladin
7065
Daxx, thanks for all the input and sticking with this thread I am sure everyone appreciates it as I do.

I think it would go a long way to explaining the Blizz pvp philosphy if you would just answer the question that I and most pvper's have. Why let pve gear in rated pvp at all? It's really a simple question but I'm sure not a simple answer. When you guys create this crazy epic pve gear isn't there one pvp playing dev that goes...are you guys crazy your going to let that in pvp?!? If not there really should be. Wouldn't it make your guys job so much easier just to say nope no pve gear with this IL in rated pvp sorry...then you can make any crazy pve thing you want (though you do anyway).

It would solve so many problems: no crazy burst, healers would have less mana, players wouldn't get globaled, it would help bring skill back into pvp, above all it would make it an even palying field and no one could complain about gear..and over all it's a fair system that 85% of the pvp community wants. Its not like someone comes out in full raid gear and tries to pvp its a handful of items that make a huge difference simply don't allow them, no pve guy is going to cancel his account bc he can't go in arena without is crazy op trinket.

So a brief explanation of why blizz just doesn't disallow the pve gear in RATED pvp would be great and very much appreciated, thanks alot for all your patience already.
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90 Undead Priest
16610
I would like to pose a question.

If the current MoP design goal is to make players want to use PvP gear in PvP, then why not just go ahead and ban PvE gear from rated PvP? I understand that the developers are working hard to avoid doing this, but high-rated players have been asking for a ban on PvE gear for years, with much of it in this expansion.

The whole 'Power' and 'Defense' thing is a welcomed change, but it would restore a lot of faith into the community to just put a ban onto PvE gear from Rated PvP.

Blizzcon tournaments and other widely-popular World of Warcraft tournaments specifically ban PvE gear from being used, and this makes the gameplay very very fair. So why should it not be this fair in-game?
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85 Goblin Priest
5090
I'm a bit concerned by this "pvp power" stat. It seems like it's just going to accelerate damage scaling in pvp, in addition to causing other problems.

I mean, let's say that you have two players fighting each other right now, in 4.3. Let's say they both have 30% resilience. Fast-forward to 5.5 or whatever the last MoP patch is, and these players now have 30% base damage reduction, in addition to, say, 25% increased damage and 25% reduced damage from PVP power and PVP defense. On the surface, nothing has changed- these equally geared players will still do and receive the same RELATIVE amount of damage, without getting into numbers. However, if you compare a fresh level 90 player- lets be generous and say he has enough gear to obtain 10% pvp power and defense- it seems as though the difference in power has only increased. The geared player will always have a massive advantage, unless the stat ratings from gear (1% of haste for a larger amount of the item's secondary stat budget than it is now, for example) are significantly lower in MoP. (this would have to be a drastic nerf of secondary (and probably primary too) stats to have any notable effects)

Overall, adding PVP power seems like it will needlessly complicate things without closing the gap between people wanting to start pvping and people who already have full sets of gear- without having any useful effects such as reducing burst or slowing down the rate of combat a bit. Additionally, it seems completely useless to give healers gear with PVP power on it, (other than to make them choose pvp gear over pve for pvp situations, but they do that for the resilience right now, anyway) as you can simply change the amount of healing mortal strike reduces, or by turning any other number of levers. I can say with absolute certainty that if damage players are capable of doing is BALANCED around healers being able to do anywhere from 10-30% more healing, (depending on what gear levels in MoP we're talking about) burst is going to be getting even more stupid than it is now.

The final reason I dislike pvp power is how it will cause everything else to scale better, leading to what I would expect to be damage getting out of control even faster than it did this expansion. Adding an additional way for pvpers to scale from gear does NOT seem like a smart way of reducing the difficulty of entry-level pvp.
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85 Human Death Knight
11920
03/07/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We want the PvP community to grow, so at least one of the goals here is to let players cross over more easily into PvP than they can today. That said, we're not expecting a just-dinged level 90 player to step into a 5.3 BG and smash face against dudes in stacked PvP gear. I'm pretty sure that's not what you guys want either. We do want someone who's moderately geared to have a much better chance in Mists than he or she does in today's PvP environment, though.


But... any baseline help you add to the undergeared player helps the highest tier geared veteran as well.

For example, increasing health pools in Cata. Sure, undergeared players now had more health, but that didn't mean much because they still couldn't kill players who also had more health AND had pvp bonuses. I guess this change would draw fights out longer (and that's a good thing), but that certainly doesn't do anything about player effectiveness.

Does that make sense? I just don't want to see you guys make a mistake here.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9755
Well this is the best writen explanation so far as to how you plan to make PVP and PVE closer together. Thanks

But it sounds like you are moving the entire game closer to PVP and away from a PVE centered game. All players now have base PVP stats. That just blows. I hate PVP, because I suck at PVP.

In no way do I want to play a PVP game, that is one thing that has made wow attractive. PVP could be completely ignored. Now we all have PVP stats, what is next forced PVP, via mandatroy liniear PVP quest lines that can not be skipped, or maybe PVP to open up an new map area, or some such mandatory PVP. Maybe not in MOP, but some time in the future?

This is a mostly PVE game with PVP side play. Making the PVE side of the game closer to PVP so it is easier to transition is the pits!

Just one more reason to not buy MOP
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