PVE Gear

Another way to think about it is that we are pushing PvP and PvE gear closer together with two changes: A player in PvE gear always has some base PvP defense (it's like a little PvP gear for free). A player in PvP gear can do more damage and healing than today in PvP because of the new Power stat (it's like a little PvE gear for free).


You are STILL not addressing the one sided transfer between the two sides.

Your'e saying PvE players will get an innate 30% and their gear won't be too useless in PvP, just they will lack higher defense.

Yet you're clearly saying that PvP gear is lower ilvl, and has stats worthless to PvE.

You're repeating the SAME THING you did with Cataclysm. PvErs can raid and turn Valor points to Conquest, buying the second best gear possible in every slot.

PvPers can't transfer Conquest, and Honor only converts into entirely outdated gear that fills a few slots with epics then the rest with 346 blues. (Far cry from every slot filled with 397 like the Valor conversion buys). Their PvP gear does a tiny it better than ti does today, which is already crap.

Once again, PvE players get an eased transition to PvP while PvP players get nothing of the sort.


Why is it that PvE players always get some sort of eased transition. Today they can PvE their way into full 397 gear in every single slot. PvP players PvP their way to a few 378s, couple 359s, couple 346s.

In Mists, PvE players will walk into PvP with half the damage reduction of a full PvP geared player and completely viable in their PvE gear. PvP players will have gear that slightly less terrible than what it is today.

This has been posted so many times by so many people and you always dodge replying to it.
Edited by Aywen on 3/11/2012 3:44 AM PDT
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85 Human Paladin
3870
what I don't get is for healers. Because lets say for world pvp, you heal your buddies cause you run into some horde guys. so in that situation, pve or pvp gear could equally heal more, since at all times healers are healing people, not monsters/npcs, and you are not in a specifically set pvp situation where pvp gear is automatically made more powerful, like a BG or arena.
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90 Orc Warrior
10880
So legendaries are still going to be game breaking.

I really hope I'm wrong, and I know that you're telling us that "PvP trinkets will be better then PvE", but we've heard this before and have no real reason to trust you/believe you at this point.

Can you also provide an example of what a new PvP trinket will look like in terms of stats/on-use etc?

Why not just make legendaries unusable, or just weaker in Arena?
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90 Gnome Death Knight
10835

Yet you're clearly saying that PvP gear is lower ilvl, and has stats worthless to PvE.


If you had read everything to do with the new gear, you'd realize that you're wrong here and that screws up your entire argument.

It was stated that pvp gear will be slightly lower item level and that it will have all the stats of pve gear (just a little less). The defense and power stats are then tacked on as extra to make it ultimately better than pve gear for pvp. We'll see how it actually plays out, but hopefully Blizzard will adjust it so that happens.

However, the fact is that it actually would make an easier transition for both sides while (assuming they do it right) making it so that each set of gear is better in their respective field.
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90 Gnome Death Knight
10835
03/06/2012 04:46 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Perhaps I misunderstood the question? I'm referring to gear, in general. If we were to compare introductory PvE gear with introductory PvP gear, the PvP gear would have a lower item level, but would be stacked with lots of 'free' PvP Power and Defense that don't count against that items item budget. In reality, it would be just as, if not more powerful than the equivalent PvE item, but exclusively for the purposes of PvP.


If you were curious where I got that information from it's where Daxx answered Areos here. PvP stats don't count against the stat budget for PvP items, so it will have full PvE stats as well as defense and power.
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90 Orc Warrior
10880
Also, is PvP gear going to be underneath "Normal" raid gear in terms of ilvl, or will it be the same as normal ilvl, but lower then heroic? While PvP power/defense are extra stats, if the ilvl difference is too high, the same issue will still happen.

I really don't believe PvP Power/Defense will make up for everything. You can still wear a ton of pvp gear, toss on a super op heroic PvE trinket, and create the same issue in MoP as what's going on now.
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90 Worgen Druid
7930
I just hope it has the same effect in the reverse. If you're a fully PVP geared character trying to get into the PVE side of the game, I hope the PVP gear will still allow you to be competitive while gearing up there too.
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85 Human Paladin
8540
Oh hey, this thread is still going.

Proc trinkets/weapons that are obtained via PVE have at times in the past (and currently, GLADIATOR CUNNING OF THE CRUEL!) completely broken or one-sided the Arena environment.

During BC when PVP trinkets were lame and boring, PVE trinkets were leaps and bounds ahead of everything else in terms of usefulness in PVP.

Healers used Memento because it pretty much made them never go oom. Physical DPS used trinkets like Tsunami Talisman, Berserker’s Call or Madness of the Betrayer, and casters would use Skull of Gul’dan or Hex Shrunken Head. Then you had Glaives on Rogues, and ‘Stunherald’ on Warriors, completely game changing items.

WotLK wasn’t much different, with people using stupid proc based trinkets giving them ridiculous powers even for short times.

Now we’ve got a similar situation, we had Vial crits for 60k (which did get nerfed eventually...), we’ve got Cunning of the Cruel being a REQUIREMENT for any caster in RBG’s (in most cases teams won’t even consider you for a spot without Cunning or Legendary) and providing Warlocks a 25% (approx) damage boost in some cases for Arena. I’ve had Frost Mages completely leap frog my Sacred Shield with Legendary Staff last season, and I’ve had it happen this season a number of times too.

Blizzard actually doesn’t seem to understand (or care) that these items are providing select classes with a completely unfair advantage in PVP when they are items acquired via PVE. I thought that the Colossus Smash change was a huge step in the right direction, and I thought that Blizzard had finally come to their senses to change things for PVP. Could this not just be done for some PVE items? Long gone are the days we had to duel somebody to test something out because we have target dummies, so why not just make it so that these PVE proc items CANNOT proc on PVP targets? Or even at a reduced effect?

I guess we’ll still see Cunning procs from ten thousand yards away interrupting flag caps for a while yet.
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85 Human Warlock
8455
03/11/2012 01:59 PMPosted by Vrqt
and ‘Stunherald’ on Warriors, completely game changing items.


"chance to stun," pish. more like guaranteed on first whack.
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85 Human Paladin
8540
03/11/2012 02:22 PMPosted by Selenora
and ‘Stunherald’ on Warriors, completely game changing items.


"chance to stun," pish. more like guaranteed on first whack.


Guaranteed to stun during cast.

If you're casting a heal, or a cc on the Warrior it's a 100%.

Well timed mace stun, outplayed.
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If they keep comming out with expansions the pve problem will take care of its self.


I feel like I should take some time to better relay the development team's intentions when it comes to how PvP stats will work in Mists.

There are two important changes to PvP itemization coming:

1. We're splitting Resilience into an offensive and defensive component.
2. All players will have at least 30% damage reduction versus other players.

If you want to do more damage to other players in Mists, you have two options. You can get better PvE gear with more offensive stats, or you can get better PvP gear with slightly smaller offensive stats built in(because PvP gear is lower item level), but which will also give you more damage against players specifically. In today's game, stacking PvE gear is really the only way to do more damage to other players in PvP since Resilience only supplies a defensive bonus. These are completely made up numbers, but imagine PvE gear is 100% effective in PvE and 75% effective in PvP. PvP gear is 50% effective in PvE, but 100% effective in PvP -- despite its lower item level, it wins out over PvE gear when used for its intended purpose.

Here are some examples:

Ders the rogue: wears PvE gear.
Jillian the hunter: wears PvP gear.
In Cataclysm PvE, Ders does much better damage than Jillian in PvE, because her PvP gear “wastes” stat budget on Resilience.
In Cataclysm PvP, Ders does better damage than Jillian for the same reason. However, when Jillian hits Ders, he doesn’t mitigate her damage at all. The result is high burst damage on both sides.
In Mists PvE, Ders still does better damage than Jillian, because his higher ilevel PvE gear has more offensive stats. The difference is smaller however because Jillian’s PvP stats aren't part of the item budget.

The item level difference is the main distinction.

In Mists PvP, they both do about the same amount of raw damage to each other, with a slight edge for Jillian. Her power stat offsets Ders's PvE stats. Jillian takes less damage because of her PvP Defense (let’s say it’s 50% damage reduction), but Ders still has 30% damage reduction innately, so he doesn’t blow up either. Again the difference is smaller. If Ders wants to get serious about PvP, he’s eventually going to want PvP gear, and Jillian will want more PvE gear to do PvE.

Another way to think about it is that we are pushing PvP and PvE gear closer together with two changes: A player in PvE gear always has some base PvP defense (it's like a little PvP gear for free). A player in PvP gear can do more damage and healing than today in PvP because of the new Power stat (it's like a little PvE gear for free).


Why is there PvP and PvE gear to begin with? Why isn't there only one type of gear, that takes into account the health of the chars? Why isn't the health of the mobs in dungeons and raids based on it? If PvE gear now does 20% more damage, simply cut the health of the mobs by 20%. That removes the need to have resilience and all the unnecessary stats in the game.

You guys are trying to fix a problem, that shouldn't have been in the game in the first place, by over complicating it.

Edited by Douka on 3/11/2012 3:11 PM PDT
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85 Human Paladin
7990
so, wit 5 years of total imbalance and fails of wow arena, you think that the system will get better?

I don't get it
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90 Dwarf Paladin
8465
03/06/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Wait wait wait...What about healers? How do they fit into this equation? Can healers just wear PvE gear?


PvP Power will increase the healing done to other players in PvP situations, so no worries there.


What's to stop people in raids to show up in pvp gear and simply flag for pvp? Technically you're in a pvp situation anywhere you go in this game if you're flagged for pvp.
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96 Worgen Priest
6920
I agree with going naked in arenas and pvp, or all equal gear. Make it about skill, strategy and teamwork. You don't have to make gear the only incentive to play. MW3 is fun without earning gear, just show people's stats or KD ratios for bragging rights. What annoys me most about the game is that it's constant work to keep up with the gearing in order to have fun. If I take some time off, or don't commit enough time—I don't have the gear to be competitive. But I can pick up MW3 anytime and jump right into PVP. The only players that get to play on an equal playing field are competing arena teams. Why can't we all try playing an even match in battlegrounds and casual arenas?

Find another incentive to PVP, not gear. Make it bragging rights, like realm rank for most killing blows, or most healing...or some minor perks that aren't game changers.
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90 Gnome Death Knight
9515
Will top tier pvp gear scale slightly behind the current to tier pve content gear (say 1.5 tiers)?
If so, why not balance the pve gear with pvp stats to be slightly behind the top tier pvp gear (1.5-tier pvp gear)?

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85 Night Elf Druid
2050
i jst hope it doesent fail like when cata came out when they changed the resilence and all spell casters wer killing melee in seconds
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85 Gnome Warlock
2560
Pve gear sounds like its the best of both worlds in mists.
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