PVE Gear

85 Human Warlock
8780
03/06/2012 04:18 PMPosted by Corpseicle
The same thing is true of most On: Use trinkets, and some procs. The simple amount they give at a single time is much more useful than the overall damage static stats would give.

It has nothing to do with burst vs. sustained damage.

NOTHING, no trinket either for pvp or pve, Nothing, can compare to Cunning for casters in RBGs.

Nothing comes even close.
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100 Human Paladin
14240
03/06/2012 04:14 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Legendary items might be an outlier, because legendary items are legendary, and the additional item levels will probably make them competitive with PvP items. On the other hand, we also expect legendary items to be *much* more rare than they are currently, so they'll also be less of a factor.


Glad to hear legendary weapons will be more... well, legendary next expansion. Hopefully the developers remain true to their word on that.

Another question off the top of my head: Will there be any changes to current PvP trinkets as to how they function? For example, Emblem trinkets (which grant on-use bonus health) are universally considered weak, but even if the amount of health granted was buffed, how effective it would be varies between classes. Classes or specs that benefit from percentage-based heals, for example, could benefit more from such a trinket.

For such an issue, I would personally make the on-use give a temporary amount of bonus PvP defense, acting as a damage mitigation cooldown instead of a boost to one's total health. That's just me, though.
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85 Undead Death Knight
5765
03/06/2012 04:20 PMPosted by Blae
The same thing is true of most On: Use trinkets, and some procs. The simple amount they give at a single time is much more useful than the overall damage static stats would give.

It has nothing to do with burst vs. sustained damage.

NOTHING, no trinket either for pvp or pve, Nothing, can compare to Cunning for casters in RBGs.

Nothing comes even close.


I didn't claim so, but even before that we had Frost DK's running around with an Apparatus with on: use Mastery that the ability to deal huge damage in a kill window will outweigh any 25% effectiveness on static stats. Or Mage's with the moonwell phial, I mean, that item was 365 and people were using it over PvP trinkets. It was obviously less of a problem, but that doesn't mean that it won't hold true for MoP as well, even if they do avoid Gurthalaks Vials and Cunning's.
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100 Human Warlock
13605


Legendary items might be an outlier, because legendary items are legendary, and the additional item levels will probably make them competitive with PvP items. On the other hand, we also expect legendary items to be *much* more rare than they are currently, so they'll also be less of a factor.


It's not the ilvl. The caster legendary has a double cast proc, that's insane burst potential in PvP. It's still BiS for most casters even though there are much higher ilvl weapons available now.

Beyond that, the fact that blizzard's position seems to be "it's okay that legendary items are going to be OP in Mists because they'll also be rare" is depressing. So it's okay for an item to be broken as long as not that many people have access to it?
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85 Human Paladin
8540
03/06/2012 04:24 PMPosted by Corpseicle
Apparatus


80k Templars Verdict.

65k Hand of Light.

I still can’t remember who you were Mage, but my heart goes out to you.
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100 Human Paladin
14240
03/06/2012 04:23 PMPosted by Seraphys
I think we scared Daxxari off...


People really need to stop antagonizing Blues each time they post in the arena forums. It's no wonder they don't post often in the arena forums, because when they finally do muster the courage to post, a whole mob of angry nerds jump them and whine and complain about every single little bit of detail the Blue may post, in or out of context.

I want my concerns to be known too, but people don't have to be so arrogant and condescending about their views.
Edited by Areos on 3/6/2012 4:30 PM PST
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85 Goblin Priest
3580
03/06/2012 03:25 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I think the overall design idea is that the starting points for the two major areas are closer, but they each scale within their area significantly faster. I.e., It's possible to get into PvP without already having PvP gear, but PvP gear is overall just better. The opposite would also be true.


A nice summary!

I think this will have the same problem at the end of the expansion that it is right now, a 30% pvp base stat + 20% per patch (make up numbers) then when 5.3 hits a non pvper will be at a horrible disadvantage. Unless the pve gear give some kind of bonus in pvp.
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100 Orc Shaman
15740
03/06/2012 02:25 PMPosted by Schleichend
Holy !@#$, a blue in the PvP forums.


sadly same old song and dance, nothing will change.
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85 Human Warlock
8780
03/06/2012 04:24 PMPosted by Corpseicle
I didn't claim so, but even before that we had Frost DK's running around with an Apparatus with on: use Mastery that the ability to deal huge damage in a kill window will outweigh any 25% effectiveness on static stats. Or Mage's with the moonwell phial, I mean, that item was 365 and people were using it over PvP trinkets. It was obviously less of a problem, but that doesn't mean that it won't hold true for MoP as well, even if they do avoid Gurthalaks Vials and Cunning's.

These items are only broken because they provided much more damage on their use than PvP trinkets.

In the new system this should theoretically never happen if it is created correctly.

However, proc items and trinkets where the result is not raw stats are Still outside of the new system. There has been no addition that will curb the damage they do and therefore their requirement for higher pvp.
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85 Human Warlock
8780
In the end there are really only two options in regards to procs and on use effects that aren't direct, raw stats, assuming that the development team continues to make these things too powerful.

1 - Disable them in PvP

2 - Nerf them in PvP

For example, if Cunning procced half as often and did half damage when PvP flagged, it would be much, Much, more reasonable.

Sure, it might not be great in PvP anymore, but that's why the developers made multiple PvP trinket options. And made them farmable.
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85 Human Paladin
8540
03/06/2012 04:31 PMPosted by Blae
Disable them in PvP

This is the only option, imagine if weapons like Dark Edge still existed in todays PVP world...

I can still beat people in duels with that weapon on the proc alone.
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100 Pandaren Priest
17445
I think their intention is to add the new stat "Power(pvp)" to weapons and trinkets that will flat increase the amount of damage you to do players. If they added like a +1030 Power (10% damage) proc to a trinket or a weapon making you do a flat 10% more damage to players it may be the better choice over PvE gear. Also these weapons and trinkets may have Defense on it reducing player damage as well. Im sure they will add enough power to the weapons/trinkets to make it a better choice over PvE trinkets/weapons.

My only concern is that although this will reduce the barrier for PvE players entering PvP, with the reduced ilvl on PvP gear and the complete pointlessness of Power/Defense in PvE how will someone in full PvP gear be remotely useful? The only way this could work is if you made it a bonus stat on gear that won't replace haste/crit like Resilience currently does.
Edited by Trinko on 3/6/2012 4:36 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
20620
One I've at least partially already addressed. The goal is to make a PvP item pretty much always the best choice, even in trinket slots.

Legendary items might be an outlier, because legendary items are legendary, and the additional item levels will probably make them competitive with PvP items. On the other hand, we also expect legendary items to be *much* more rare than they are currently, so they'll also be less of a factor.


There will always be PvE trinkets that are amazing for PvP. Because trinkets(particularly pve trinkets) always have new and useful abilities, they creep their way into PvP. Just in cata i can think of Vial of Shadows and Unheeded Warning, that were completely game breaking for PvP, so much that they were nerfed.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5005
03/06/2012 04:16 PMPosted by Areos
I chose to post here specifically because I know this issue is important to you. Don't waste the opportunity to have a dialogue by willfully misinterpreting or reinterpreting what has been written. If you're confused, or you have a question, then say so or ask it. My intention here is to make the incoming system as clear as possible.


I have a few questions I'd like to have answered if possible:

-- Do you intend for legendary weapons to be best in slot for PvP classes capable of using them? If so, wouldn't this be contradictory to the design philosophy behind this change?
-- When you state that PvE gear will have a higher item level than "equivalent" PvP gear, are you referring to normal or heroic raiding gear?
-- What do the developers plan to do with PvP trinkets in order to make them best in slot for PvP again? Insignias and Emblems are underpowered in PvP while proc-based trinkets like Vial of Shadows and especially Cunning of the Cruel are far too powerful.
-- Have you ever considered implementing a stat on PvE gear that's reminiscent to PvP Power and Defense, but for PvE scenarios? For example, a stat that increases damage dealt to non-player characters only?


I'm just gonna quote this one because it's a good set of questions.
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