PVE Gear

100 Human Mage
6500
03/06/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Areos
I think we scared Daxxari off...


People really need to stop antagonizing Blues each time they post in the arena forums. It's no wonder they don't post often in the arena forums, because when they finally do muster the courage to post, a whole mob of angry nerds jump them and whine and complain about every single little bit of detail the Blue may post, in or out of context.

I want my concerns to be known too, but people don't have to be so arrogant and condescending about their views.


Not that antagonizing blueswill help. BUt we have a right to be pissed. This game has been in a shyt state for 2 straight expansions.
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100 Human Warlock
13615


The PvP Gear will likely do the same or more than the Heroic Raid Gear verse other pvp targets, all the while being able to sustain the damage that you will more than likely take in pvp.


I'd hope so, but there has been no statement that would lead me to believe this. I wouldn't be surprised if the plan was for PvP gear to do they same damage as normal raid gear, while heroic gear was higher damage even in PvP situations.
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85 Human Paladin
8540
03/06/2012 04:46 PMPosted by Daxxarri
In a way, this is already the case. There are stats that are of great value in PvE that are extremely sparse in PvP items, and also extremely weak in PvP. Hit is a good example.


Except that reforging effectively cancels a lot of this out.

Before Blizzard brought reforging into the game, you had to mix/match your gear appropriately with very small gem/chanting changes. What reforging allows you to do is cover any required stat with another and you're sorted, and in PVP this is extremely gamechanging. During BC arena as a Warrior you needed the full PVP gear set to have the required Hit Cap, and you needed to gem/chant it just right. Now because of reforging, if a single PVE item comes out that is head and shoulders above any PVP item even for PVP, you’re able to just slap it on and fix your gearset up so you’re all sorted for PVP.

We are not concerned with your PVP Defense/PVP Power garbage and how it will work come MoP, understand this.

We are concerned with trinkets/weapons obtained via PVE giving one player a GIGANTIC advantage over another player who does not have said item. How can you justify the way Cunning works? Why does it scale with the Warlock in the first place? Why was Vial only completely broken with Rogues scaling with Find Weakness? Why is it fair that a mage using Legendary can randomly launch off another 30k Ice Lance off at me which was 100% impossible to counter?

These RNG mechanics that you've placed on some items are having extremely detrimental effects in PVP. Blizzard didn't want PVE'ers having to PVP to get upgrades for PVE, well you messed up on several fronts over multiple expansions with this. For one, I was using the PVP Mastery Cloak from S10 as my TANKING Cloak as a Prot Paladin because you provided NO OTHER OPTIONS. Even the Rhyolith AGILITY Cloak was better than the 'real' tanking cloak provided at the time, and that was AFTER the nerf to agility on Paladins/DKs/Warriors.

Instead you've got PVP'ers being FORCED to PVE to get items that allow them to compete in higher rated PVP. Whether you did this intentionally or not has very little to do with whether you understand why it's such a problem right now and what we are asking of you.

It drives me bonkers watching some classes with legendaries just dump all over skilled players simply because of the item.
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85 Goblin Hunter
10295
03/06/2012 04:11 PMPosted by Areos
People are concerned over whether powerful PvE weapons and trinkets will continue to dominate the competitive scene, which, considering WoW's past history, is a very legitimate concern.

People wouldn't have those concerns if they knew how to read. GC specifically addressed this point in his blog. PvP weapons in 5.0 are meant to be absolutely better for PvP through the PvP-specific offsenive stats, but worse in PvE through the lower item level. It's not hard to understand. Stop rushing to the forums to whine, and instead think, next time.
Edited by Tekemay on 3/6/2012 5:05 PM PST
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86 Draenei Shaman
11395
I'd hope so, but there has been no statement that would lead me to believe this. I wouldn't be surprised if the plan was for PvP gear to do they same damage as normal raid gear, while heroic gear was higher damage even in PvP situations.


Okay, but then the trade is going be that they will take more damage. In his example earlier he stated that players will have an innate 30% damage reduction against pvp targets. So If they start taking off their pvp gear for more damage, their 50% damage reduction starts to fail closer to that 30%, making them much easier to kill.

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85 Human Warlock
8875
Okay. Like what?

Be specific.


TL:DR at the bottom.

The whole point of this change is to make it easier for PvE players to coax themselves into PvP We truly understand this.

Assume everyone in my scenario has an ilevel of 395 ( my horde warlock has 397 pvp, 395 pve, both using PvP spec vs level 85 dummy)

My PvE set does about 20k dps in PvP spec at ilevel 395.

My PvP set does about 17k dps in PvP at ilevel 397 (keep in mind pvp trinket has 0 value)

In Cata PvE and PvP gear will perform similarly in 5 mans because level 87 bosses will only have 2% chance to be missed by a caster and that can easily be made up by replacing the 1 trinket that has 0 value.

Now in same geared PvE lock vs his PvP geared brother (no soul link for napkin math) will do 20000dps vs a target with 45% damage reduction so he'd lose 9000 dps.

PvE geared lock deals 11k dps to his PvP bro.

PvE geared lock has 0 resil so he will be taking all 17k damage from PvP guy.

PvP geared lock will do 9350 dps to himself.

PvP geared lock deals 1.54x as much damage as the PvE geared lock in a duel.



In the current game we can say that:
1. PvE gear is 100% effective in PvE.
2. PvE gear is ~55% effective in PvP.
3. PvP gear is 85% effective in 5 man dungeons.
4. PvP gear is probably much closer to 60-70% effective against ?? bosses.



In MoP since we don't have concrete numbers we'll go by your estimation Daxx. I know these are rough ball park numbers.

These are completely made up numbers, but imagine PvE gear is 100% effective in PvE and 75% effective in PvP. PvP gear is 50% effective in PvE, but 100% effective in PvP -- despite its lower item level, it wins out over PvE gear when used for its intended purpose.

1. PvE gear is 100% effective in PvE. The same.
2. PvE gear is 75% effective in PvP. Better for PvEers.
3. PvP gear will be 50% effective in 5 mans. Much worse for PvPers trying to dabble in PvE.
4. PvP gear will probably be much worse in raids with reduced stats being extremely difficult to reach hit cap.

Assuming the "100%" if 10k dps

PvE lock does 10k dps in PvE
PvE lock does 7.5k dps in PvP

PvP lock does 4k dps in PvP
PvP lock does 8k dps in PvP.

We're assuming the PvP lock has a lower ilevel as Daxx suggested in his post. The PvE geared lock has the slight damage disadvantage that Daxx mentioned. It's a much lower disadvantage than before but still there.

Now the PvP lock only deals 1.06x as much damage to the PvE geared lock. Though he will be taking (as it seems now) probably an extra 10-20% less damage in full PvP gear.


While you've closed the gap and that's certainly something that needs to be applauded it ----DOES NOT---- solve the problem of items like cunning of the cruel, vial of shadow and what ever FOTM PvE trinket / weapon that will exist in the future.

I can't think of a single tier that wasn't plagued by at least 1 trinket that VASTLY outpaced the PvP version of the trinket.

Currently cunning (which may be the most broken trinket of all time) makes up somewhere between 5-10% of peoples damage in PvE on single targets. In PvP I've seen it make up (on average 20%) 15-35% of afflock/spriest damage. Vial of Shadows wasn't as high sustained but the fact that it dealt such high damage so reliably at a set interval (45 seconds made it much easier to time).

The system you guys are going to doesn't fix the problem of single slot items that vastly over perform in a single slot via procs. PvP doesn't allow optimal rotations. Trinkets will still proc optimally. Things like cunning will proc just as often while dealing 2-5 time as much damage as there will ALWAYS be partners for it to hit. Things like vial will be timeable with re-direct kidney dance bombs helping secure kills.

The way to fix this is to make PvP gear much much stronger than PvE gear in PvP.

Or a much more simple: Disable proc trinket / weapons in PvP.

The latter will allow you to help bridge the gap from PvE to PvP while putting a stop to having to nerf an "Unheeded Warning" type trinket every single patch.

TL:DR,

I see how this really helps alleviate the problem of PvE players trying to PvP. They will deal more damage than currently while taking less proportionality.

I don't see how this will do anything but make PvPers going to PvE more frustrated. Their gear will now be lower ilevel with inferior stats. At least now they have the advantage of more raw int while missing out on that secondary stat.

It also will not fix trinkets/ proc weapons / legendaries ruining arena/rbg balance.




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03/06/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Ders is in full PvP gear except for one PvE trinket with an extremely overpowered proc in PvP contexts.


So, right now, there isn't an alternative to using awesome PvE gear in PvP. A great PvE trinket beats anything from PvP.

In 5.0 a trinket with PvP stats should beat out a PvE trinket in PvP.


o.O

1) You found my statement
2) You acknowledged that it's currently a problem
3) You suggest that this PvP Defense/Power implementation is aimed at fixing it

... I might actually cry because of how happy I am.

All joking aside, thank you so much for taking the time out to discuss changes with the Arena forum. I think I speak for everyone when I say that we feel ignored a lot and you just sticking around and answering questions and interacting with us is a huge thing for us. Actually acknowledging shortcomings in the game and release some info as to how it is known and discussed by the devs...

Look, you post the name of a bar in southern california and a day and I'll show up and buy your drinks for a night.

That's how appreciative I am.
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100 Human Mage
6500
Glad that the Dev have finally drawn this conclusion. The end of the expansions were just awful for new players to try to get involved since they were so far behind in gear.

Hopefully there will be more active balance changes for pvp in Mists since there does seem to be a genuine attempt for more pvp in the game.


Its not just the gear gap for latecomers. Its the skill gap. I havent done arenas in months and have fallen behind. I am getting my butt handed to me I wont lie.

I really feel sorry for any newcomers that enter this system especially after the season has been going on for a few months. Arenas right now are newcomer hostile period and there is no easy fix outside of finding a way to get tons of newcomers to come into the system so they can face each other and get their feet wet.
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85 Human Warlock
8875
03/06/2012 05:05 PMPosted by Reygahnci
In 5.0 a trinket with PvP stats should beat out a PvE trinket in PvP.


Just cause they say it doesn't mean it's true.
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100 Night Elf Druid
13160
does the rogue still kill the hunter even in daxx's theory thing? I wanna know who wins the duel mannnn!
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86 Draenei Shaman
11395
Its not just the gear gap for latecomers. Its the skill gap. I havent done arenas in months and have fallen behind. I am getting my butt handed to me I wont lie.

I really feel sorry for any newcomers that enter this system especially after the season has been going on for a few months. Arenas right now are newcomer hostile period and there is no easy fix outside of finding a way to get tons of newcomers to come into the system so they can face each other and get their feet wet.


This is the exact issue i feel they are addressing. They are adding a ton of pvp options and making so that entry level pvp will not be so discouraging. With these new changes, there will hopefully be plenty of new people who want to get their feet wet with pvp.
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03/06/2012 05:09 PMPosted by Ticatwo
In 5.0 a trinket with PvP stats should beat out a PvE trinket in PvP.


Just cause they say it doesn't mean it's true.


It usually does.
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Community Manager
Daxxari, you asked me about a page and a half ago to state my example.

I stated it, and you haven't responded to it.


I've responded to it at least twice, once before you asked it specifically and failed to address the 'there are HUGE things that don't add up simply because they cannot' that were supposedly at issue with the system. In reality, you were just still worried about PvE trinkets in PvP, not the system we're discussing specifically.

So... you came here bearing elaborations when it was too early to even elaborate..?

>_>


There's a difference between being able to discuss our intentions regarding how PvP stats should work overall, and knowing exactly how individual trinkets are going to perform, complete with stats.
Edited by Daxxarri on 3/6/2012 5:34 PM PST
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85 Draenei Shaman
9050
areos is weird
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85 Human Warrior
2510


Its not just the gear gap for latecomers. Its the skill gap. I havent done arenas in months and have fallen behind. I am getting my butt handed to me I wont lie.

I really feel sorry for any newcomers that enter this system especially after the season has been going on for a few months. Arenas right now are newcomer hostile period and there is no easy fix outside of finding a way to get tons of newcomers to come into the system so they can face each other and get their feet wet.


It's not a gear issue keeping people out of arenas. It's imbalanced comps, lack of viability for certain classes, and the glaringly obvious fact that when these things do become obvious they get ignored for entire seasons. It really, really feels like they have a list that allows certain classes and comps to take turns being on top.

Because comps and classes most of the time are L2P issues, but 50k vial crits, 20k volleys, double shatters are not.
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85 Human Warlock
8875
03/06/2012 05:11 PMPosted by Daxxarri
There's a difference between being able to discuss our intentions regarding how PvP stats should work overall and our intentions, and knowing exactly how individual trinkets are going to perform, complete with stats.


Please just disable proc trinkets / weapons in rated PvP. Assuming offensive stats on PvE gear is supposed to = offensive stats on PvP gear while sacrificing some defense the chances of you guys creating a ridiculously over powered proc is just too much.

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