Cataclysm Post Mortem -- Dungeons and Raids

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90 Draenei Shaman
13090
03/10/2012 04:00 AMPosted by Dorrell
Not this patch, you cap it accidentally right now.


No, you don't. I rarely cap mine on either character I play. The only way you cap it is by doing extra, like heroic raiders doing dungeons or LFR, and so on. If I clear 8/8 one week, I don't cap. If I don't clear 8/8 (and don't always, to extend to move forward rather than re-clearing stuff) then if I want to cap I need to run an excessive amount of heroics or LFR or whatever to do so. There is nothing in any of those places for me. The points system really could be replaced with things that are more interesting, and the best place to do that would be through professions.

Ya know, aside from turning (due to breaking my wrist I can't use the mouse), I have good play habits. However, I've also played with people who have nameplates off, because they find them confusing and distracting. They don't like tons of stuff like that on their screens.


I'd like to go back to a couple of other points you've brought up. Some of the UI breaking you've talked about, I can see all that, but the add on system is really one of the biggest issues with the game in general.


I agree with that. The default UI is terrible, right down to the very ... ugly skins on everything. Character window and all that is "fine" (meaning functional but not very clean), but the default nameplates are very inefficient visually. Inefficient meaning using a non-solid health bar color, having "ornate" borders, having a level indicator, and just in general being too big with no way to shrink them. Would these people use them if they were smaller, cleaner, and more efficient visually without giving unnecessary information like level?

I think if everything in the game looked as good as the compact raid frames if you turn off the borders, the game's UI would be in a much better place. Right now, it's really clunky, and is a very severe disadvantage. Why are there still no customizable buff timers for important class specific buffs like Slice and Dice, or at least a more obvious UI element that tracks things like that rather than it being lost in the mess of buff squares that ultimately aren't going to affect your decisions?

On the other end, some addons give entirely too much of an advantage if used properly - namely boss mods, or Gladius for arena more than any other probably. These are artificial advantages that really shouldn't exist, and thankfully boss mods are becoming less and less important, but it isn't enough yet. Some addon functionality should probably be removed - like reading events other than damage/absorbs/immunes/healing out of the combat log?

Power Auras is another addon I abuse that gives a larger advantage than probably any other. Every debuff a boss can give, I add to my "power aura of doom" so that it plays a sound, shows a visual effect, and has a timer for that debuff. The game should have all of these effects - have a Shaman Hex you to see a good example of how it should work. The game should always make it obvious when you have Countdown, Blackout or Shrapnel, or whatever other important debuff you need to react to you might get, rather than just doing it once in a while.
90 Worgen Mage
15160
Reading comprehension is strong with this one.... When you charge a monthly sub fee for your product you become a service...

Meh, I'm getting the game I want, it's called MoP. Just waitin for it right now.


I like how thats a magic transformation you are assuming now. The subscription fee does not make it a service nor should it necessarily be one. You also complain of reading cromprehension, you have failed more times than I can count on reading my posts.

And by the way, I do not know what is coming with Mists. How is it that you are so confident you are "getting what you want" in Mists? It is already fairly clear that there is going to be a shakeup in the 10 and 25 man raids, could it end up being something you really hate?
90 Pandaren Warrior
0
No, you don't. I rarely cap mine on either character I play. The only way you cap it is by doing extra, like heroic raiders doing dungeons or LFR, and so on


Ya see, you're only raiding. Get out of there and experience other parts of the game. BH and a 5 man, boom you capped. You're complaining about an hour of your time if you can suspend your disbelief with is actually pretty fun in many ways.

I'm starting to think that raiders are going to be treated the same way arena PVPers are though. They can't cap CP through arena, they have to do RBGs and honor randoms. I think the same is going to be true for raiding, VP is only going to be cappable if you do other stuff. I'm not saying I like this 100%, but it seems to be the direction they're going with it.

Power Auras is another addon I abuse that gives a larger advantage than probably any other. Every debuff a boss can give, I add to my "power aura of doom" so that it plays a sound, shows a visual effect, and has a timer for that debuff. The game should have all of these effects - have a Shaman Hex you to see a good example of how it should work. The game should always make it obvious when you have Countdown, Blackout or Shrapnel, or whatever other important debuff you need to react to you might get, rather than just doing it once in a while.


PA is as broken as decursive was back in the days of Classic. The guild I was in at the time had the place on farm, we couldn't get Lucy (the first boss) down the week they broke that. None of the mages or healers even knew how to decurse because that mod made it 100% automated. So yes, we totally agree there.
90 Worgen Mage
15160
No, you don't. I rarely cap mine on either character I play. The only way you cap it is by doing extra, like heroic raiders doing dungeons or LFR, and so on. If I clear 8/8 one week, I don't cap. If I don't clear 8/8 (and don't always, to extend to move forward rather than re-clearing stuff) then if I want to cap I need to run an excessive amount of heroics or LFR or whatever to do so. There is nothing in any of those places for me. The points system really could be replaced with things that are more interesting, and the best place to do that would be through professions.


I do agree that VP/JP has morphed into a terrible system. It also seems to be in some ways used as a scapegoat for not putting enough gear elsewhere - "not enough bosses? meh just add it to the vendor".

I understand why it was implemented and there are certain aspects about it that should be kept, but the VP/JP or whatever other kind of token you get, should be limited to the content that you complete. IE, if you kill normal mode dungeons, you can purchase gear of that item level. If you do heroic raids, you can purchase gear from that item level.

I understand that the tokens may seem unwieldy but if content should be designed to last and remain part of progression then you should be getting rewards appropriate to the level you play. Being able to skip all the previous raids and their content within an expansion is bad design and is just a waste of resources. All of those encounters and bosses that just get left in the dust and it is still the same expansion.
90 Pandaren Warrior
0
Reading comprehension is strong with this one.... When you charge a monthly sub fee for your product you become a service...

Meh, I'm getting the game I want, it's called MoP. Just waitin for it right now.


I like how thats a magic transformation you are assuming now. The subscription fee does not make it a service nor should it necessarily be one. You also complain of reading cromprehension, you have failed more times than I can count on reading my posts.

And by the way, I do not know what is coming with Mists. How is it that you are so confident you are "getting what you want" in Mists? It is already fairly clear that there is going to be a shakeup in the 10 and 25 man raids, could it end up being something you really hate?


I've got an educated guess as to what's coming, and yes it's one of two things. One I will hate with a passion, the other I'm going to love to death. But I'm not going to speculate on something that will prob get released next week anyway.
90 Worgen Mage
15160
PA is as broken as decursive was back in the days of Classic. The guild I was in at the time had the place on farm, we couldn't get Lucy (the first boss) down the week they broke that. None of the mages or healers even knew how to decurse because that mod made it 100% automated. So yes, we totally agree there.


One thing you have to remember is that boss fights in heroic are extremely complicated beasts. In some cases for healing, the game is asking to track multiple issues and debuffs across other raid members in 25 man format on very limited time frames - and still do their job healing. Without certain boss mods such as PA or WeakAuras that we use, the mechanics that occur on heroic become so complicated that they are almost impossible to track - whether you have a better UI or not.

This is not so important I have found in the easier difficulty settings, but this game in heroics has grown so complicated and so sophisticated that I cannot see an unmarrying of the encounter mechanics to these kinds of mods without either:

1. Making the content much easier or
2. Making the content 10 times harder than it already is.

Breaking these addons isn't as simple as it sounds.
90 Pandaren Warrior
0
03/10/2012 04:59 AMPosted by Virtutis
PA is as broken as decursive was back in the days of Classic. The guild I was in at the time had the place on farm, we couldn't get Lucy (the first boss) down the week they broke that. None of the mages or healers even knew how to decurse because that mod made it 100% automated. So yes, we totally agree there.


One thing you have to remember is that boss fights in heroic are extremely complicated beasts. In some cases for healing, the game is asking to track multiple issues and debuffs across other raid members in 25 man format on very limited time frames - and still do their job healing. Without certain boss mods such as PA or WeakAuras that we use, the mechanics that occur on heroic become so complicated that they are almost impossible to track - whether you have a better UI or not.

This is not so important I have found in the easier difficulty settings, but this game in heroics has grown so complicated and so sophisticated that I cannot see an unmarrying of the encounter mechanics to these kinds of mods without either:

1. Making the content much easier or
2. Making the content 10 times harder than it already is.

Breaking these addons isn't as simple as it sounds.


I'm aware of that. But it doesn't change the fact that Blizzard has, without a doubt, started tuning for mods and not the stock UI, which is part of the problem we're all experiencing with our expectations of the game.

They can't tune for every addon possibility because that's unrealistic, but even tuning for the common ones forces players to put things on their computer to complete content that they may not want on their computer.



Don't quote or directly criticize me too much on this yet, I need to think about it today. But we may be on to something..........
90 Draenei Shaman
13090
I have, it is a very fun fight and the MAIN FREAKING ENDING TO THE PLOT LINE SHOULD HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AT THE TIME IT WAS THE ACTUAL STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No one should EVER be forced to go back and read a book, because some one decided to rip a chapter out of it on them in the name of, "discovery." There is no discovery in something when it's not available to be seen, you discover things when you find them. Being able to find them denotes they're not locked in a safe that only 1000 people know the combo to.


If you said this about Sinestra, you have a fair complaint. Sinestra was a brilliant encounter that was a part of the main storyline, and everything about that encounter was amazingly well done (if you weren't on the bleeding edge and had to deal with all the bugs and hotfixes between or even during attempts that is).

Algalon specifically wasn't a part of the main storyline of Wrath of the Lich King. He was an observer sent by the titans to determine if Azeroth was beyond saving - which is a pretty big event, of course, but just like Abyssion in ToS (who was brutally difficult even on the easiest play setting, not to mention very very easy to miss) he was a "bigger" threat that wasn't really a part of the real reason you were there. It's, really, just a "minor" side story there to be discovered, rather than part of the story that the expansion was focused on. Ulduar's place in the story was shown during Yogg-Saron, to explain why the denizens of Northrend were so easily controlled by the Lich King - which was due to the corruption of the Old Gods. That is my only legitimate complaint against Ulduar... its part and purpose in the WotLK story wasn't told well enough, and that's something Blizzard agreed with late in WotLK at some point.

This all goes back to giving people what they want, and not what they ask for. What people want is an expansive world to explore. What people ask for is to see everything. Providing option 2 is a direct contradiction to option 1.

That is why the main story absolutely should be accessible to all, and fairly easily, but why "side stories" or "optional content" can and should exist for specialized groups of players. There are so many titles out there, there are so many different mounts out there, and so on, that none of that is really a reward anymore. You get "of the Nightfall" before Ulduar came out, and people noticed, because there were maybe a grand total of 30 non PvP rank titles in the game. You get "Savior of Azeroth" now and nobody notices because there are more like 200. A recolor of the same armor everyone else is using isn't a very compelling reward either. Mind you, that's not really the reason I do heroic modes, but if you do something that requires that kind of dedication and effort, you should have something to show for it that people will notice.

Here's an example of where I'm coming from with "specialized" content - pet battles. That is a feature that is being added in MoP, and it will surely be a very time consuming area of the game if you wish to "experience all the content" that comes with it. Many people will love it, and that is perfectly understandable.. I loved Pokemon, but do I have the time to get the most out of it considering I'm a heroic raider and yet may still have a life outside of WoW? Probably not, it's probably not going to be time I have to spend, and there are going to be things I miss out on because of it, or things I don't get to see until much later in the game's lifetime. And that's a GOOD thing. It adds depth. It means this game offers more than I need. It means this game will be a better game with more to do, more to see, always, forever. And this same concept can be applied to a heroic-only boss like Algalon, or a heroic-only phase like Ragnaros p4, but for all of this to be a success, the game itself needs to provide the tools to learn and play at a higher level, so the capabilities of one player as compared to the next is only a natural difference, rather than having a massive artificial (UI, controls, addons, tutorials etc) difference piled on top of it.
Edited by Ashunera on 3/10/2012 5:29 AM PST
90 Pandaren Warrior
0
This all goes back to giving people what they want, and not what they ask for. What people want is an expansive world to explore. What people ask for is to see everything. Providing option 2 is a direct contradiction to option 1.


You see I disagree here. You can do both, because the game world is made up of so much more than just the raids exploration wise. I'm one of those players that the PVPers hate because at the beginning of the expac I like to explore and see the entire new BGs.

Exploring and finding easter eggs can be done multiple ways. I spent almost an afternoon looking for the horde pet vendor in Darkshore over the summer. The game needs a ton more things like that, and stuff like the lake north of DM and the hot springs resort need a purpose once their found.


Expanding on that will do so much more for exploring than the other. Raids and dungeons are there for group play, not so much exploring. A detailed cavern or castle in the open game world would rock, and they really don't do stuff like that often enough, and that's appropriate especially for world bosses.

I'd also like to see more development done with weekly and side events. Create more things like the fishing contest, do a bi-weekly speed boat race on the barge out where the slat flats was in 1k Needles. Put in "Find it" quests that you'd have a week to complete and randomly give hints as to where the items are all over the game world. The little micro PVE group idea they're doing is good, but more little events all over the place would be even better.

More to do in multiple ways is always a better thing, it's just so much of the core storyline and lore occurs in the dungeons and raids that we come to these arguments. A raid or 5 man that's simply "go in here for treasure hunting" and outside of that cycle would be the only thing I'd find appropriate in the facet you're talking about.


And you're right, I am still bitter about Sinestra, especially since no one wants to even pug it now because of the current content fad. On a side note, I always considered Agalon and the story line there as the main one for Ulduar, as I'm a HUGE titan lore fan, and I felt like I was denied that lore experience by it's conclusion for Wrath being parked behind a super elite only stamped boss. Had he been a separate guardian system that wasn't corrupted that got activated accidentally is one thing, but meh. The group I was in never got past Mimiron before I got frustrated to the point of deactivating my account. But like I said before I was also leaving for Army BCT in two months, so meh.

I'm also a fan of the Tauren lore and there was a ton of stuff this expac involving Hamul, especially in the molten front. Then the conclusion of that was stamped onto a heroic elite players only boss... Same thing with Garona. Cata has just been one big mess of incomplete storylines for a lot of the playerbase. The Abyssal Maw wasn't the only ball dropped, because rather than that one hole for you guys, there are 3-4 for everyone else.
Edited by Dorrell on 3/10/2012 7:54 AM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
8645
"We’ve been reasonably successful with our tuning across all four raid difficulty modes. There were a few warts here and there, but we delivered on the idea that 10-player and 25-player raids could exist at a similar difficulty. "

What in the hell are you saying?!?! 10 man is still a joke compared to 25 man. Yes it's not as big of a difference as it was in wrath but the gear levels should not be the same for each size.

Take heroic morchok for example. The first time I killed it was in a 10 man, I tanked it. I didn't have to pop a single cooldown the whole fight (pre nerf). I then killed it on 25 man while tanking and I had to have a cooldown for every single stomp.

Point being, just because you have more healers the tank shouldn't get hit for 90% of his health and only 35% in 10 man.

Learn to balance them or put 25 man gear at a higher item level.
90 Pandaren Warrior
0
03/10/2012 08:47 AMPosted by Fascinating
is that why T11 got so many complaints, because the normal mode encounters were designed to be too difficult for players who lacked the skill to turn their character with a god damn mouse?


If the game required this to be able to play any of the content in it, then the keyboard turning functions should be disabled in the next expac and a requirement for the Naga mouse made.

Lets see the chances of that happening...... zero, wonder why that is...
90 Undead Warlock
6900
That was disappointing. Spine of Deathwing was a very visually interesting fight, but mechanically it was underwhelming. Both the Spine and Blackhorn encounters felt like trash gauntlets to me, rather than boss fights. As a caveat, my impression is colored by the fact that Spine is just a horrible fight for a Warlock. Really, it's terrible.

My impression of the piece is that it is shallow. I know nobody likely publicly admitting mistakes, but your impressions of how well you did with the content this expansion is not borne out in the subscriber numbers.

The addition of LFG and LFR this expansion were very cool, though they certainly make the game world seem smaller.

Normal 5-Mans
Fine, they tied in well with the lore of their respective zones.

Heroic 5-Mans
Making these difficult was not a mistake. At the same time, nerfing them after a period of time was not a mistake either, even though it took a lot of the challenge (and for me, fun) out of gearing up additional alts. While they were relevant content, the heroics felt HEROIC, and that was very cool. Bosses like General Umbriss and Slabhide really kept the entire group on their toes. The experience was very reminiscent to Outland dungeons, but with more compelling boss mechanics and less trash to wade through.

T11
BWD is probably my favorite raid for this expansion. BoT was cool, too. The final bosses for each of those were memorable. I felt like most guilds disregarded Throne of the Four Winds, but I liked the platform jumping and flight mechanics there. I've heard that difficulty wasn't really balanced well 10 vs 25 for Throne, though. I hope that you adopt the less-linear feel of BWD for more 5-mans and raids in the future.

ZA/ZG
Fun nostalgia dungeons, and challenging enough to give you a bit of a scare in appropriate-ilvl gear.

Firelands Dailies
Interesting bit of story, but the rewards were not worth the time and effort that was required to obtain them. If all you're doing is handing out some non-combat pets and gear that's a half-tier behind, make it less grindy. I feel bad for Demonology Warlocks.

T12
Firelands was a disappointment. 8 bosses for an entire raid tier isn't very much. I think you guys totally blew it with Rhyolith, and judging by the number and severity of the changes you made to that encounter, I suspect you agree. The whole tier just struck me as odd. The "dance" mechanics in fights like Rhyolith, Alysrazor, etc were very pronounced, too much so. As a DPS class, I didn't feel that my damage was important for a number of the fights, just my ability to execute an arbitrary dance.

Also, FL was nerfed too soon and too severely. My guild at the time was having retention issues, but we were progressing, albeit slowly. Then we come in one week, everything's nerfed into the ground and we roll over the rest of the dungeon with little trouble, months before DS was even slated to come out.

Abyssal Maw
:(

Hour of Twilight 5-Mans
These dungeons were too easy, even in comparison to the equivalent 5-mans in WotLK. Nothing deals any real damage. Escorting Thrall is an exercise in frustration (why do we need to talk to him so many times? Why does he run SO SLOW?).

Maybe it's because I haven't read the books, but the plot for these was puzzling to me. If it is so simple to go back in time to get the Dragon Soul, why don't we have dozens of them floating around in present-day Azeroth? Just hand them out to people at the door and we'll go all Ark of the Covenant on Deathwing's minions.

For that matter, why don't we go back even further and just say "hey, aspects, don't infuse this with your power, Neltharion's totally insane." Our previous time-traveling excursions have been to specific times to prevent tampering by the infinite flight, but that's not the case here. If the goal is to stop Deathwing, why not go back to before the Dragon Soul is even made?

Lastly, the idea of effortless time-travel takes quite a bit of the urgency out of our quest. Minor quibble, I know.

T13
An improvement over T12 to be sure. Dance mechanics are less pronounced, you're nerfing it more gradually, etc. It is still disappointing to see such a short raiding tier, especially since most of the art assets already existed (2 out of 8 bosses were new models?). The bosses used have little to no lore connection, so why not just make up ~4 more of them?

Also, with the addition of LFR, I was expecting DS normal to be more challenging. Wasn't the whole point to add in an "easy mode" for players that lacked time or inclination to assemble a guild group, but still wanted to see the content? That's an idea I can get behind, so why was normal DS so much easier than normal FL?

EDIT - Oh, and to comment on encounters in general: Debuffs that necessitate tank switching are not compelling mechanics. Give the second tank something to do or make it a 1-tank fight.
Edited by Mandorgan on 3/10/2012 12:09 PM PST
90 Undead Warlock
6900
03/10/2012 04:53 AMPosted by Dorrell
PA is as broken as decursive was back in the days of Classic. The guild I was in at the time had the place on farm, we couldn't get Lucy (the first boss) down the week they broke that. None of the mages or healers even knew how to decurse because that mod made it 100% automated. So yes, we totally agree there.


Meh. Blizzard designed Lucifron, and Decursive was developed to deal with the absurd amount of dispelling they wanted us to do. I agree that people rely pretty heavily on addons (healers especially), but I think that's got more to do with the tedium that's demanded of them.

03/10/2012 10:11 AMPosted by Dorrell
is that why T11 got so many complaints, because the normal mode encounters were designed to be too difficult for players who lacked the skill to turn their character with a god damn mouse?


If the game required this to be able to play any of the content in it, then the keyboard turning functions should be disabled in the next expac and a requirement for the Naga mouse made.

Lets see the chances of that happening...... zero, wonder why that is...


A starter tutorial on strafing/mouse turning and another on keybinding would go a long way towards alleviating issues at max level, I think. I don't know what specific mouse brands have to do with it.
Edited by Mandorgan on 3/10/2012 12:55 PM PST
90 Pandaren Warrior
0
03/10/2012 12:50 PMPosted by Mandorgan
A starter tutorial on strafing/mouse turning and another on keybinding would go a long way towards alleviating issues at max level, I think. I don't know what specific mouse brands have to do with it.


It's more of me being a bit snarky about it, because that's the most common gaming mouse and typically the only one that's found in the main stream.

I have a tendancy to do a combination of keyboard and a bit forward and backward movement on the mouse, as I mentioned before, I can't do full mouse movement due to limits in my wrists abilities to rotate. Something that I couldn't get around when I tried on of those out.



From an I/O device standpoint though, when you get down to it, there are multiple different ways people do movement. Saying keyboard turning vs mouse movement is really over-simplifying both of them in the sake of starting a separate argument.
85 Human Paladin
5225
I like how the guy said Abyssal Maw was no big loss cuz it wasn't gonna be cool anyways, since everyone already hated the water from Vashj'ir. Tell that to the rest of us who haven't seen it nor given a chance to judge for ourselves. Tell that to the people who already hated the fire from Molten Core and Molten Front (not myself but beside the point.) And he pretty much said that we shouldn't gripe about AM because we were more justified in griping about something else that wasn't put in either. I'm not sure if everyone sees the comedy in that.

And like what everyone else said, it seems like Blizz has downplayed the issue of 10 vs 25.

Basically these kinds of interview should be done by player communities, and gamer journalists should give Blizz some knockout Qs and As, and post them on the web. Not to fault Blizzard per se, but if people only talk to themselves then they only get their own perspective, no matter how brilliant a designer you are.
90 Undead Warlock
6900
03/10/2012 02:17 PMPosted by Sábér
I like how the guy said Abyssal Maw was no big loss cuz it wasn't gonna be cool anyways, since everyone already hated the water from Vashj'ir.


It's odd how they choose which complaints to consider. I enjoy leveling in Vashj'ir immensely, but I understand a lot of people found it disorienting(?)

Still, that's no excuse for releasing an 8-boss raid tier and leaving the plot threads hanging from the zone quests >:(

Maybe they were too busy planning ahead for POKEMON BATTLES (yeah I know I'm just whining now).
I don't know if anybody had brought this up, but the dungeons weren't too hard at all. It was the fact that we had to run them continuously that got annoying. Once we became "good" at them, newer players became annoying. We just wanted to get our crap over-with quickly and get out.
85 Human Paladin
5570
I honestly think you could tune 5-man dungeons for so much more then you do now. Why don't you make large dungeons but do them in wings? You can use a similar mechanic to raids except if people just want to do a wing which would be the 15-30 mins and then they can bail after a boss fight like current 5 man pugs do.

Small guilds can use these large multi-wing 5-mans as a way of gearing their players and prepping them for larger content. Or if they don't want to take that next step then they can just use them as their weekly end game content. Blizz can tell the same story in large 5-mans as a 10/25 man raid. Why not do it this way? You don't need the massive amounts of coordination and all the prep it takes for those large raids. Imagine Kara as a 5-man. If it was tuned as a 5 man dungeon and you and your friends can chunk away at it over a few days or if you don't have the time you can queue for a certain wing (if unlocked) and pug it.

These large 5-mans bosses would drop gear tokens (i.e. as patches move forward to the next tier it will drop the previous tier tokens except helm or shoulders) so players are just a step behind the large content and when they feel ready to step up it's easier to bridge the gear gap . If you made it to the end of the wing and you were there for the loot roll it saved you to that wing for a couple days till it unlocked (2 or 3 days should suffice). Other then these large 5-mans I guess you could call these the "heroic" dungeon we could also have a few regular 5-mans like WoW has now.

Another problem I still see with a lot of dungeons is we aren't conditioned to think that using all of our class mechanics as a good thing (i.e. CC/coordination). The reward is the loot and downing of the boss. That end state of the dungeon is expected to happen no matter how coordinated or not we are. Just spam my abilities like I did while leveling and I'll win. We have been conditioned to expect that every PUG can just push through the dungeon, get loot and then requeue again. What I have noticed is that we as individual players aren't taught to think outside the box while leveling. Just grind our way through the levels and that's how we attack dungeons and raids *cough RF cough*. Not saying that it requires negative punishment everytime you do something you're not supposed to in WoW but there are many different avenues of positive/negative reinforcement and positive/negative punishement that will help condition the player in the 1-84 levels to think outside the box so the end game content would be a fun but not totally differnt challenge.

With dual-specs and real ID it would be pretty cool to have this heroic 5-man to do with a few of my friends or guildies. The guilds I'm with now don't want to touch 5-mans anymore. They just say if I want to do them to "queue for the random dungeon finder and save your badges." Get me off the loot treadmill, into the world and back to enjoying your game again.

Give me a compelling story and fun game mechanics and I'll be interested in playing the game again. If not then you know I'll be playing a game that offers what I said above but with no monthly fee. Cheers.
Edited by Tarberen on 3/11/2012 5:17 PM PDT
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