Cataclysm Post Mortem -- Dungeons and Raids

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90 Human Priest
15115
There seems to be a trend across the blogosphere, and the majority of the feelings towards cataclysm was "it wasn't that great". Numbers have shown it, posts have shown it, enthusiasm has shown it.

Just stop being sloppy and catering to the lowest common denominator. This isn't a math equation. People play games for fun AND some form of difficulty. We like to be challenged and overcome those challenges.

By giving us sloppy design mechanics and faceroll dungeons/raids people leave the game. And people have left the game, and will continue too. Then you will be left with an entitlement community that will continue to degenerate into nothing.
Edited by Mestre on 3/5/2012 8:02 PM PST
100 Dwarf Paladin
5270
So I've been raising a ruckus about challenging PvE content for small player groups for a little while now (well, waving my arms and shouting, that might not be considered a ruckus), and I'm really looking forward to challenge mode dungeons and scenarios.

My two bits again:

Challenge modes should have varied goals. Just a time trial for every dungeon would be lame. Different challenges for different dungeons, please!

I'm not really sure what your goals for scenarios are, but I'm hoping that at least in some way they will require in depth collaboration that actually makes each player feel like their individual contributions matter.

That's all! Keep up the good work guys!

Some of the afore mentioned ruckus.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4081815999
Edited by Genrik on 3/5/2012 8:34 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2620
03/05/2012 07:57 PMPosted by Cyous
Hour of Twilight dungeons hit the sweet spot in terms of difficulty? May god have mercy on us all.

You need to consider doing said dungeons in 359 gear, which would be a whole lot more of a challenge.


This is an alt of mine. I hit level 85 and didn't touch her until 4.3. I queued for HoT the moment my ilvl let me. There was still no challenge to be had.
85 Undead Priest
3470
03/05/2012 07:57 PMPosted by Cariono
.even though they listened to the player base, and this is what we got.


They listened to the vocal minority. Not the majority of the player base.


Are you serious? If they listed to the "vocal minority" which is pretty much the forums, this game would never be good. Every patch, every expac, they all whine it sucks. Ever since patch 1.1. Also the majority says more then your "vocal minority", they just don't do it in public light.
90 Draenei Shaman
13090
03/05/2012 07:57 PMPosted by Cyous
You need to consider doing said dungeons in 359 gear, which would be a whole lot more of a challenge.


I have, they still aren't remotely challenging and can be steamrolled. The only time they are challenging is when your group mates don't have the slightest clue how to play their spec or are doing it for the first time and can't be bothered to ask questions.
100 Night Elf Hunter
20260
03/05/2012 07:57 PMPosted by Cyous
Hour of Twilight dungeons hit the sweet spot in terms of difficulty? May god have mercy on us all.

You need to consider doing said dungeons in 359 gear, which would be a whole lot more of a challenge.


The problem is they yield no challenge whatsoever. The last fight in WoE is a joke. Stay outta fire, aoe adds, and enjoy the roflstomping abilites that illidan and tyrande provide!

End Time has some challenges, each fight I have wiped on nicely, so this was done great.

Hour of twilight? Once again, not too much of a challenge. The first boss, meh. 2ed? Just stay outta the cloud, everybody stand behind the tank... The final boss and his trash are really the only ones that provide a bit of a challenge. =/
100 Tauren Shaman
15020
Are you serious? If they listed to the "vocal minority" which is pretty much the forums, this game would never be good.


But...that's exactly what they did. The forum outcry over heroic dungeons being too difficult was insane. There were cries for nerfs everywhere. Everyone I talked to in-game were having a relatively fun time progressing.

A few months down the road and whadya know? Heroic 5mans were nerfed into oblivion.
100 Night Elf Druid
16830
The article isn't great but forgetting about it and putting my own thoughts regarding dungeons and raids in Cataclysm:

I actually enjoy the majority of dungeons. There are some that stick out like sore thumbs and I think while the challenge at the start of the expansion was refreshing for me, it definitely wasn't as nice to newer players. Spending 3 hours in Deadmines just isn't fun.

Fights like Ozruk, Baron Ashbury, High Prophet Barim, Forgemaster Throngus, Setesh and the Neptulon encounter were really enjoyable when they were difficult and even now with a group full of freshly dinged 85's can still prove to be a challenge. Ozruk is really interesting as it puts the majority of the responsibility on the tank, while also ensuring the DPS and healers are kept on their toes: how many people have you seen die to not moving out of his Ground Slam, or got crit by Paralysis (when it could) and got one-shot?

I didn't really like the revamped instances: Shadowfang Keep had a few bosses that were enjoyable but the entire environment isn't for me (though the challenge that was Springvale was very amusing) and Deadmines to this day still takes a decent chunk of time. I'm also not looking forward to seeing more instances remade for Mists of Pandaria - I'd rather they stay awesome than have my memories tarnished by running them over and over again.

I think the new dungeons are slightly on the undertuned side (though I still get completely destroyed by the Dragonkin before the last boss in End Time!) but they're a lot better paced despite the amount of RP in them. The only issue I have with them are that Thrall is a really bad pugger and likes to stand in frost traps, pull things for me and run off in the wrong direction.

On the raid side, I've enjoyed it. I enjoyed Bastion more than I did Blackwing Lair and enjoyed the overall feel of Firelands. Dragon Soul is okay but it doesn't have the feeling that 'last raid of the expansion' feel. There are very few new models, I didn't really like Dragonblight in Northrend and the encounters just aren't very engaging. The fact it has sidelined my co-tank into a DPS role makes it worse. I got where the developers wanted to go with Deathwing (he's so badass he will be two encounters!) but I don't think it worked. Granted, I've only done them on normal mode but they just aren't enjoyable - the mechanics aren't interesting, again can be one tanked and the level of engagement isn't there.

Overall, it has been a mixed bag but I'm leaning more to the enjoyable side than hating every minute of it. I'm not at that stage where I dread seeing a loading screen, whereas I died a little inside every time I saw Violet Hold, Ank'ahet and Halls of Stone/Reflection in Wrath.

The only thing I'd do differently is to have something other than dungeons and raids to do. If I'm not in those, or doing dailies (which I rarely do because I dislike questing) I'm waiting in a queue for something. We need something to immerse us and to just let us be in a game for a good period of time. Not everyone wants everything to be over in 15 minutes.
90 Human Priest
15115
03/05/2012 08:00 PMPosted by Marathel
There seems to be a trend across the blogosphere, and the majority of the feelings towards cataclysm was "it wasn't that great". Numbers have shown it, posts of shown it, enthusiasm has shown it.


I'll say this. The lore was atrocious to the point of being sickening. As an avid reader and fantasty/sci fi lover 4.1 and the Zandalari literally should be deleted from the game. So many holes...4.2 wasn't so bad but 4.3 with Deathwing being like.

"HEY GUZ IM GOING TO DESTROY YOU ALL NOW AFTER TAKING LIKE A 5 MONTH NAP!"


You're right. It's one of the major failings of this expansion. But most people don't think to much on that, they worry about difficulty and mechanics.

I've said it before, people want to be challenged. They don't want faceroll (at least not to much), they don't want to be treated like idiots who don't know how to play a game. Sometimes you need to NOT listen to your forums and give people what they don't know they really want. BC proved that, people came in during that time, Vanilla proved that as it was the LARGEST gain of any time. Cataclysm proved that if you make everything so easy, that if you don't add content, and that if you treat your players like idiots you will LOSE subs.
85 Undead Priest
3470
03/05/2012 08:06 PMPosted by Cariono
Are you serious? If they listed to the "vocal minority" which is pretty much the forums, this game would never be good.


But...that's exactly what they did. The forum outcry over heroic dungeons being too difficult was insane. There were cries for nerfs everywhere. Everyone I talked to in-game were having a relatively fun time progressing.

A few months down the road and whadya know? Heroic 5mans were nerfed into oblivion.


I'm not talking about this, I'm talking about overall. The forums are always erupting in QQ over any change to WoW, ever since it got going.
100 Draenei Paladin
18055
End Time, Well of Eternity, and Hour of Twilight all provide epic play experiences to our players, but at the real sweet spot of difficulty, complexity, and time commitment.


Quoted from the article.

Yeah, that's pretty hilarious to hear anyone say seriously. It's also depressing since it's pretty much a measuring stick of what we can expect in the future.
100 Human Mage
16615
Then why didn't you have it done before the nerfs? Still waiting on that kill I guess. And it wasen't fast at all..You have had months after the like what first 100 kills? And the nerf increased after another month just like they told you what would happen. You had your chance but it seems it was too difficult for you. 500 pulls a week? Try not to over exaggerate too much.


This is funny coming from a level 34. My guild has 4-6 hours to raid a week. That's all we can get together for. So, we are supposed to what? All take a weeks vacation to do heroic modes? Really, Blizzard pushes next tiers and nerfs too fast for casual raiders and not fast enough for hard cores. They likely will never win on that account.
100 Troll Druid
11585
Conclave of wind was a good one? Seriously? That was one of the most frustrating raids, not difficult or terribly hard, just frustrating. And after we killed it my guild left it alone until we went back to attempt heroics, because frankly the loot wasn't worth the hassle.
90 Draenei Shaman
13090
Dreadful blog. HoT sweet spot in difficulty? C'mon man.


Half of Well of Eternity plays itself. Remove Magistrike Arc and Shadow Ambusher and you might have a cool dungeon.

End Time was reasonably good.

Hour of Twilight could've been great considering the scope and feel of Old Hillsbrad. Ended up being pretty boring with too much waiting around... the only real complaint about Old Hillsbrad was the limited attempts thing originally, and the run from Durnholde to Tarren Mill being too long. So the answer to that is to magnify the wait times? Sigh.
85 Orc Warrior
4995
Just to add on I would just like to say that I love blizzard games and I love wow, hence why i've been playing it for 6 years. But I do agree with the majority in this thread. And I know we as players can be harsh sometimes, but its just our way of pushing developers further and hopefully ensure a better game in the next expansion. But with that being said spine wasn't that great of a fight. For me T11 had the best fights in cata. Loved atra
90 Tauren Druid
15945
My edited post, since I got my knee jerk reaction out of the way.

I think he lost all credibility when he said

Many players use Raid Finder...just because it’s fun.


Sorry, but you're completely out of touch with your playerbase. It's not fun. I think everybody does it because they have to, not because they want to. Raiders do it for gear for progression, non-raiders to keep up with the ever increasing ilvl requirement for BH and regular DS PuGs. It would be fun if it was truly only done to see the bosses and their mechanics, but that's just not the reality. "Seeing the content" has become "get a full set of current gear," which should have been anticipated and solved by having it drop lower ilvl gear, maybe 365, so that reg FL would still be current content while you're working your way to reg DS.

For those of you that keeping calling for GC's head, let's go for Scott “Daelo” Mercer instead. If we can get a new lead encounter designer that realizes that DS is the worst raid in the game because of having pretty much completely rehashed art and uninspired boss mechanics were (especially both Deathwing encounters were close to the worst fights in the game due to repetition), and that LFR's loot drama would taint the tool's implementation, maybe we can take a turn back to Vanilla dungeons and raiding and rekindle the spark of imagination that made this game popular to being with.

However, I guess I can't really describe that spark. Maybe it was that Blizz wasn't so worried about keeping a ton of players, and instead focused on keeping the core of their players happy. If somebody fell off the wagon because they weren't up to the challenge or the grind, Blizz stuck to their guns and didn't listen to them. They simply said "Get better or find another game." It was brutal back in Vanilla, but Blizz knew what they were doing. Now they just listen to the vocal minority of the player base constantly and look how Cata did...Blizz is declaring it dead before the next expansion even has a release date! lol

All-in-all, I think the path to recovering from Cata is to put more time into designing new raids that offer original art and boss mechanics that challenge the players and keep them engaged enough to keep playing month after month, without burning out from shear boredom.
100 Worgen Mage
18560
Hi. Thanks for the interview. There's some issues here I would have liked Daelo to have addressed, most notably:

-Abyssal Maw being scrapped

-How they feel the separate 10 and 25 man raiding formats have worked out in Cataclysm. It was a huge change, and a comment would have been nice. If they feel it's not working out, it might be a precursor to the fact we might be seeing a single 15-man raiding format in Mists.

-From the feedback they gauged, what mechanics and fights they felt players liked and which ones they didn't. Spine wasn't a popular fight, but it seems there's a disconnect here because it was widely unpopular with the community.

That's my two cents. Daelos a great guy and I've talked with him on the PTR before a lot, but I really think this interview could have been more informative than it was. :(
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