Cataclysm Post Mortem -- Dungeons and Raids

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91 Draenei Death Knight
11505
The 4.3 5 mans are the sweet spot of challenge? That's really sad to hear. End Time is one of my favorite 5 mans in WoW, but the others two are major disappointments. Well of Eternity is good for one play through and after that you're largely just along for the ride as the dungeon plays itself. Hour of Twilight was just boring.

Yes, the release heroics were too time consuming, but not too hard. Would it have really been so bad to make shorter experiences that were still a challenge? Why have the only options thus far been long and challenging or short and trivial?

Dragon Soul can't be considered anything other than a disappointment. The gunship was the only encounter that was solid from a game play perspective (technical achievements are meaningless if it's not fun). Even ToC was a far better raid overall because at least those fights were fun.

T11 was easily the highlight of the expansion, warts and all. Imaginative, challenging fights with an excellent difficulty curve. The difficulty curves in Firelands and Dragon Soul were complete messes for entirely different reasons.
85 Tauren Warrior
10805
I'll skip most of the specific critiques because many posters (in this thread) have already stated excellent, valid issues that are continually side-stepped.

I really, really, really hope that this little interview isn't an indication of PvE to come in MoP. It feels as though the game designers have been grown increasingly out of touch with the player-base during Cataclysm. I mean, you seriously think Spine was one of the best encounters in Cataclysm?!?! Do you have an employee that actually reads the forums and plays the game? It may have been a challenge to design, but the real measure of success is how much players enjoyed the encounter...and it doesn't take a PhD to know that many players didn't/don't like Spine.

And...Cataclysm Post Mortem?!?! You're talking about this expansion as though it's already over when it sounds like we won't be getting any new content for many, many months. You're squandering the good will and loyalty of your player-base by ignoring their concerns, putting out unpolished/infrequent content, and stringing them along for months on end because, "MoP will fix it!"

If, just ONCE, you guys came out and admitted that you really f*cked up a few things in Cataclysm...it would go a long way, but pretending like everything is just fine and dandy is insulting to the people who trust you to provide quality entertainment.

/end rant
24 Goblin Rogue
250
And...Cataclysm Post Mortem?!?! You're talking about this expansion as though it's already over when it sounds like we won't be getting any new content for many, many months. You're squandering the good will and loyalty of your player-base by ignoring their concerns, putting out unpolished/infrequent content, and stringing them along for months on end because, "MoP will fix it!"

If, just ONCE, you guys came out and admitted that you really f*cked up a few things in Cataclysm...it would go a long way, but pretending like everything is just fine and dandy is insulting to the people who trust you to provide quality entertainment.

/end rant

Pretty much this.
70 Gnome Warrior
545
Too bad on the dungeons. I do get the noble goal of bringing people back to having to put forth effort in 5-mans. Unfortunately, those days are dead and gone.

And grats on ruining some of the old dungeons and raids in the "remakes." Nobody wants to do the new versions.
Edited by Nerdraging on 3/5/2012 9:25 PM PST
90 Human Priest
15115
I'll skip most of the specific critiques because many posters (in this thread) have already stated excellent, valid issues that are continually side-stepped.

I really, really, really hope that this little interview isn't an indication of PvE to come in MoP. It feels as though the game designers have been grown increasingly out of touch with the player-base during Cataclysm. I mean, you seriously think Spine was one of the best encounters in Cataclysm?!?! Do you have an employee that actually reads the forums and plays the game? It may have been a challenge to design, but the real measure of success is how much players enjoyed the encounter...and it doesn't take a PhD to know that many players didn't/don't like Spine.

And...Cataclysm Post Mortem?!?! You're talking about this expansion as though it's already over when it sounds like we won't be getting any new content for many, many months. You're squandering the good will and loyalty of your player-base by ignoring their concerns, putting out unpolished/infrequent content, and stringing them along for months on end because, "MoP will fix it!"

If, just ONCE, you guys came out and admitted that you really f*cked up a few things in Cataclysm...it would go a long way, but pretending like everything is just fine and dandy is insulting to the people who trust you to provide quality entertainment.

/end rant


Well said. And this echoes my sentiments as well.

This cannot be what MoP will be. I will find a new game if this is the future.

Edit: And I really hope you are listening Blizzard, because it would be a shame if you weren't. You can tell this has angered your player base (I hope). What will you do to fix the issues we care most about. It isn't pets, it isn't challenge modes. Can you guess what it is?
Edited by Mestre on 3/5/2012 9:26 PM PST
70 Gnome Warrior
545
Well said. And this echoes my sentiments as well.

This cannot be what MoP will be. I will find a new game if this is the future.


I think we see a clear and predictable pattern here. Remake old content that doesn't need remaking. Put out some initial content and then nerf it gradually. Add a quest hub in the 2nd patch. It's the most predictable thing out there.
Spine was bad. Bad. Just bad.

It is a boring concept. The word "epic" is not one I would use unless you use it this way:

Spine encounter was an "epic" failure.

This expansion pack is and soon to be WAS a black eye on this franchise.

Waiting until March private media pass to see anything redeeming is coming for MoP.
85 Human Paladin
7590
I'm honestly a bit surprised at how positive the tone of the message was.

Quite frankly:

1) Dungeons were too difficult: 5-Man dungeons should have 3 tiers of difficulty (leveling, normal, hard mode).

2) Dungeons took too long: There are about 10 trash pulls per boss in the dungeons.

3) Gear Score lock-out system favored PvP gear: We told you guys about this issue a long time ago yet you never did anything about it. It's faster for me to do PvP to get the minimum gear to do LFR than to PvE. That's just wrong. (PvP included... really??)

4) LFR made running the prior teirs obsolete almost immediately: LFR should be released a month after the new tier.

5) Rewards were pathetic: Even if you managed to plow your way through an entire dungeon when it was at it's peak difficulty you didn't even get that epic from the last boss you did in WoTLK.

6) Normal dungeons couldn't be done at max 85: I remember a quote from GC regarding players that wouldn't be good enough to do heroics "enjoy doing normals." Did nobody tell him that there was only going to be a couple normal dungeons available at 85?

7) Group Builder Failed to Construct a Good Group: The LFG system would occassionally put you in a group that had no way to complete a dungeon.

For example, In GB you needed reliable snares and reliable CCs. Missing one of those? Congrats you can't beat the dungeon (at appropriate gear levels before nerfs). Let's not even mention Baron Ashbury (the first boss of a dungeon of all places) that most group compositions couldn't beat.

8) ZG & ZA: Wow, these dungeons were the only dungeon options for valor points for way too long and took nearly twice as long as all other dungeons.

9) Boss mechanics were "unfair": This has a lot of overlap with "too difficult" and "Unbeatable bosses due to mechanics" but beyond that, there were bosses that didn't provide enough info about where "safe" was or where they were going to outright kill you (Stonecore had a number of these).

10) Melee DPS were outright awful compared to range the entire expansion.

The list goes on....

Every one of these was/is a major problem, but they seemed pretty happy with everything. A little more humility please? At least the "Post Mortem-Quest Design" demonstrated that they had learned something.
Edited by Divinara on 3/5/2012 9:52 PM PST
100 Human Paladin
16470
I cannot shake the overall feeling that all of these sort of "blog"-type or feature posts with which we've been presented all throughout Cata are not so much a matter of being communicated to as a game community, but rather being marketed to.
52 Human Paladin
520
This post mortem is so much less introspective than the Quest that it's disappointing.

I do appreciate all of the experimenting with difficulty levels that the team did though. I think the overall problem is this though -

A challenging encounter is a lot of fun for a group that regularly works together - either because they usually play together or because they are in a guild.

A PUG group, as content ages, quickly progresses to a level where you get more and more players expecting everyone else to have mastered the dungeons and not having patience for inexperience. Soon after release, it starts with one or two, who simply become obnoxious and maybe leave the group. It later becomes more of the group and they just kick the inexperienced guy. Or the tank is the impatient one and he just drops.

At least with the initial release instances, you had normals to learn with. I realize Blizzard doesn't like spending time on normal dungeons when most people quickly migrate to the heroics, but in the LFD tool world, normal dungeons are what help people migrate to heroics. Also, don't be afraid to up the iLVL to get into a heroic. If a strong group wants to gear up some low iLvl Friends then let them queue for specific heroics and random some normals until they hit the needed level. Make it more likely that the people getting into PUGs have the equipment to make up for the lack of organization.

I understand you're simply going to make the MoP Heroics easier - which I suppose is one solution. Making the normals better stepping stones might be another.

100 Troll Druid
16310
Im sorry but who is asking these questions. No one I've talked to cares about any of these questions. Are they actually ignoring us on purpose?
85 Goblin Death Knight
1435
03/05/2012 06:10 PMPosted by Styill
Hour of Twilight dungeons hit the sweet spot in terms of difficulty? May god have mercy on us all.


By sweet spot they must mean "Nap time with epics".
03/05/2012 09:30 PMPosted by Hantha
I cannot shake the overall feeling that all of these sort of "blog"-type or feature posts with which we've been presented all throughout Cata are not so much a matter of being communicated to as a game community, but rather being marketed to.


It is becoming sickening and tiresome.
70 Gnome Warrior
545
03/05/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Ferasill
I cannot shake the overall feeling that all of these sort of "blog"-type or feature posts with which we've been presented all throughout Cata are not so much a matter of being communicated to as a game community, but rather being marketed to.


It's similar to how small-town politics works nowadays. You tell people how it's going to be, and it happens. To give some folks credit, they do try to respond, even if it's a more or less childish attempt at self-justification. Sometimes people are just going to have things their way, and feedback is only something consulted once an approach definitely didn't work.
90 Blood Elf Rogue
13145
Absolutely. I didn't hear a harumph from that guy over there!

I worked for a Fortune 100 once, we believed our own press. Hell I believed it. My customers made fun of me for it. Then we closed up one day in 2007. My life hasn't been the same since.

Word to the wise, listen to the customers and give them what they want. Tell everyone what they should expect moving forward. I felt this was vague. This is my entertainment company, and my primary entertainment company going on well over a decade. I'm on the fence, gang. Help me move one way or another and interview someone with some power up in there.
91 Draenei Death Knight
11505

Crowd control is so hard. We learned to do it in SFK at level 18 7 years ago...


Eh, but long-duration crowd control really isn't interesting game play anyway. Short-duration control is much more interesting and requiring skill and timing.
85 Undead Priest
7650
I never thought I would post in a thread like this, but I can't resist.

Ever heard the expression "If you're not going to do something 100%..."

Or Yoda's "There is no try. Do or do not" (Paraphrasing there).

Seriously guys - Either give us a post-mortem or don't.

You'll never get a positive response to a half-hearted attempt like this.

Ill-conceived at best.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting into the nuts and bolts of dungeon and raid design. If you like Grim Batol and Artramedes (I did too!) then give me something to actually read with some insight. Lift the curtain a little. I promise - we'll all love you for it. At least I will!
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