Hail's Guide to Sub PvE (5.4)

90 Undead Rogue
10145
01/09/2013 11:26 PMPosted by Willikins
It does mean that in aoe situations you really don't want to let CT drop off at all otherwise you'll be losing that bit from CT on all your targets.

Yeah, CT is good to the point where for AoE fights (Wind-lord) mastery's value is greatly increased.

01/09/2013 11:26 PMPosted by Willikins
that might have been based on the CT double dipping values I guess

Yeah when MoP released CT was better than Eviscerate single target. That was fixed early on though, now its about half as good.

I have selected the 5% all stats buff - so it'll get the bonus from that. Turning it off moves it back on par with AP.

Yep, silly us. On the note of enchants, I'd just go with haste or something since even if Str is your best stat it soon won't be and haste is mad cheap. Plus if you are using another spec then str will be useless. Are you sure you aren't set to Assassination? That spec values AP a lot higher and thus Str is right under mastery, it's best secondary that isn't hit.

01/09/2013 11:26 PMPosted by Willikins
I considered the pvp set bonus, but noted you already had that in other pieces

PvP bonuses are all useless for PvE so no reason to get sets for them.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
9670

Yep, silly us. On the note of enchants, I'd just go with haste or something since even if Str is your best stat it soon won't be and haste is mad cheap. Plus if you are using another spec then str will be useless. Are you sure you aren't set to Assassination? That spec values AP a lot higher and thus Str is right under mastery, it's best secondary that isn't hit.

I went haste anyway - as that is better for combat as well (which is generally my offspec, just playing around with Assassination atm). I thought it might have been setting strength as my highest because I was in Assassination spec when I imported yesterday, and maybe the change over of specs didn't work. But I've reimported today and its still ranking strength as my #3 stat after agility and hit. The top 4 are the same for me between Sub and Assassination - but they do vary for Combat.


PvP bonuses are all useless for PvE so no reason to get sets for them.


I was assuming you meant season 12 not t12 when you referenced it - I was wondering how a little bit of extra energy was going to help. Although thinking about it I'd have to see - but that extra energy might mean an extra ambush on an opener/vanish - at the least it might allow me to hemo in the opener which I haven't been able to do. The 4 piece from the next season (5.2) with 150 energy might be a bit more interesting for openers/shadowdance too? But you were actually referring to the firelands fire damage one? Would it still be enough to overcome the stat differences these days? It is % based so that helps it scale..
Edited by Willikins on 1/10/2013 5:50 PM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
I'm thinking that next season the pvp 4-pc bonus will only be worth it if 3/4 items are upgrades in their own right and the 4th is close, just because that extra energy doesn't give any extra attacks (well, one), but rather just makes it so you get more hits during high damage phases (which is good but still).

But yes, tier 12. I did this in DS, not so much now, but basically what you do is equip the set before your fight with lots of +haste (or w/e your best secondary that you can't cap is) gems/reforges/chants. Then before the fight you use Tricks, switch out the set, prepot, stealth, and you get a nice increase in one of your stats for the first ~25 secs of the fight. You can also sub in other items with lots of stats, however make sure you don't sub anything with a proc since I believe equipping a trinket will cause the proc to go on a short CD.

Actually could be worth it to equip an on-use trinket....
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44 Goblin Rogue
3975
Ok call me dumb, but it seems to work pretty good so far while in the RDF.

Is this not acceptable for a Sub Rogue to do for fights in Dungeons? This what I do to boss and tougher mobs, lesser mobs don't usually last.

Pre-med > Ambush > Hemorrhage > Expose Armor > Eviscerate....vanish and start over.

I do see the advantage of using Slice and Dice now that I know it regens power.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Well at lower levels fights are fast enough that you often just want to Eviscerate. That said I think about 1/3rd of the duration of SnD is equal to the damage you get from Eviscerate. Maybe more. SnD does a LOT.
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44 Goblin Rogue
3975
01/14/2013 03:20 PMPosted by Haileaus
Well at lower levels fights are fast enough that you often just want to Eviscerate. That said I think about 1/3rd of the duration of SnD is equal to the damage you get from Eviscerate. Maybe more. SnD does a LOT.


Cool I will keep that in mind, thanks!
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90 Night Elf Rogue
9670
Hail - how are you finding Shadowcraft's estimates versus what you are actually achieving in raids? Are you still able to do better? Either way... I need some more practice clearly - just wondering how far off I am.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
I don't think I have hit my shadowcraft dps on any single target fights that don't have damage boosts, however the number of fights that are ideal for subtlety in t14 is quite low. In fact the only fight I can think of is normal gara'jal. The last time I fought him was in 10m (thus likely without some of the target debuffs ShadowCraft has that I generally choose since I run 25s) and I think the tank pulled early messing up my opener. On Feng in that run I did about 95k dps which is about 6k lower than what ShC has me doing.

One thing I should mention is that subtlety is not very well modeled with ShadowCraft so it could well be that what it has as our dps is above what the actual theoretical max is. That said, it could also be below said max.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Hey, credit for this goes to Fiveandahalf (who found it) and Roxell (who brought it to my attention) for the upcoming change in my guide regarding glyphs!
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100 Orc Rogue
17025
I could not find it in the guide, but what is the cool down rotation towards the start of a fight? Considering vanish / shadow blades / Shadow Dance.

And does the current 4P (which makes SB last longer) change said rotation?

I'm aware SB and SD/Vanish are not to be popped together (no SB until find weakness is over). And would like to think the 4p could change the rotation for different encounters.

So... what would it be with and without the 4p? (thinking long term when we upgrade to the next pieces of tier in 5.2)
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
I go ShD>Vanish>SB. Definitely ShD first since it is on the shortest CD and is crazy good, Vanish and SB is harder, and there's insufficient theorycrafting to give an accurate answer.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
9670
I think it is more about the encounter really - but you'd need to time it out. I just did a rough rundown of about a 7 minute fight and in terms of the usage you end up with the same number of cooldowns used - and you don't overlap anything (either way you end up with some perfect timing).

I didn't look at putting vanish in there before SB though.

However if it is between a 6 and 7 minute fight then it'll depend on the timing to whether you can get an extra SB in there

However it looks like there'll be a minor difference if you are using the 4 piece. Using ShD first you'll end up delaying your shadow blades and vanish cooldowns (by 4 seconds, so it's more or less noise, but I think it indicates an unravelling of the timings.

You can have a look at my spreedsheet I was doing this in:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AixfUrTjOlksdFZXTFljQ21FV2F6bzFNVjZWM29JYWc&usp=sharing

Looking at it the timing of vanish if it is after ShD is not quite right because you need to wait a couple more seconds for premed to come back up (actually a bit longer depending on when you using premed in your ShD). But I think there is actually enough space in there anyway to cater for that.

So I don't think it matters really.

I've been using SB first because it is the longest cooldown, so to be able to use it the most in a long fight it needs to be used early and you can use it and ShD back to back - and in theory it allows you to set up everything for your ShD.

I think it'd also be interesting to look at how much of a difference overlapping SB and FW is... i.e. in a fight just over 6 minutes long you could theoretically get another SB in if you opened with SB rather than waiting that ~13 seconds for FW to wear off after the opener.

Edit: Fixed up the link and related comments.
Edited by Willikins on 2/3/2013 11:54 PM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Generally speaking using shorter CDs first is better since there is a greater chance you'll get extra uses out of them than out of a longer CD. Take, for instance, a 5 min CD. That's likely to be once per fight no matter what, so when you use it doesn't matter, even if it is the last 5 secs. Course it gets more complicated when you consider the potency of each CD, and really what you need to do is think of it on a fight by fight basis. Also consider that some fights you will want to save or frontload CDs.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
9670
I can see that as a general rule :) Particularly because the sort of timing it really requires is in an actual (non-patchwerk) fight plays a bigger role anyway. From my perspective where I only really get to try these things out in LFR is that the duration is highly unpredictable :)

One thing this exercise actually showed me was that I wasn't really considering ShD an 18 second cooldown (yes I'd always wait for it before using SB so I didn't overlap) - but for something like Tsulong I would think I'm getting close to my stacks but I still have enough time to make full use of ShD and was ignoring the FW time afterwards in those calculations (mind you I always seem to time using ShD just as daytime starts...)
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Yeah, for Tsulong you should be using ShD twice every night phase and once every day phase. Course the day doesn't really matter but it is good practice to use CDs for long add phases. I think one thing I'd like to see for sub would be shorter length of CDs. You know, like 100% reduction for 7 secs. Would probably hurt pvp though. Then again who cares about armor in PvP?
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90 Human Rogue
12895
I have found for Blade Lord (H) (if you're using current 4 set at least), crossing ShD w/ SB, is yielding very strong results for that fight. Mainly because of his ability timers, you don't want to risk only benefiting from half the time of SB in between his specials. By the time I get around to being able to use another dps cds (such as vanish), ShD is almost if not already up by the time hes finished his cycle of specials.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
I can see that, it is really hard to deal with multiple CDs when bosses often have phases where they can't be attacked. Similar story with H Windlord since you want to maximize the CD usage during his 500% damage taken phase.
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100 Orc Rogue
17025
02/05/2013 07:41 PMPosted by Roxell
I have found for Blade Lord (H) (if you're using current 4 set at least), crossing ShD w/ SB, is yielding very strong results for that fight. Mainly because of his ability timers, you don't want to risk only benefiting from half the time of SB in between his specials. By the time I get around to being able to use another dps cds (such as vanish), ShD is almost if not already up by the time hes finished his cycle of specials.


My guild just downed Heroic Blade Lord last night. I was playing Sub and figured the extra DoTs would be beneficial for the fight, but ran into CD trouble, such as the one you explained. The longer SB is becoming a pain as opposed to a plus (at least for Sub... its great for combat). Looking forward to the next tier bonus'.

On another note - while I am aware Shadowcraft isn't perfecting Sub 100% - I am only seeing a 1% DPS decrease if I choose my cp builder as Hemo only. I can't see how dropping backstab yields a 1% drop. The dps decrease nearly matches the 2p bonus increase. Is this one of many flaws with Sub in shadowcraft - or am I doing something completely wrong? (I just wanted to see how much of a drop it would be to ignore Backstab. I believe backstabbing isn't possible in a few 5.2 raid fights).
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Very likely it is a flaw with Shadowcraft. A lot less time has been spent optimizing the subtlety engine, and I would assume even less optimizing the unconventional options such as changing CP builder. That said I couldn't tell you what is wrong with it without looking pretty hard at the code.
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Hail how do I rogue?

It has been too long.

Halp! I have fallen and can't get up!
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