Hail's Guide to Sub PvE (5.4)

85 Night Elf Rogue
3810
Haileaus,

As you can see on my profile I am now specced for sub the right way and using my daggers, although i wish I hadn't put a poison on that sword so i could AH it for a crap-ton of money. Even so, my wife's Arcane mage is pulling about 17K in DPS (still have some work to do on her stuff) and I am still outdoing her and she is shocked since I am undergeared by about 10ilevels or more. I think when I replace my shoulders and OH dagger I should do a bit better. One question I have is say during a boss fight and instead of the tank trying to hold the guy still, he kites around a bit, during these situations do you think it would be beneficial to switch from trying to use BS as my CP generator to using Hemo until i CAN get behind the boss and stab his !@#?
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85 Night Elf Rogue
3810
Also, are my glyphs ok? I do realize that over 17k is kind of low, I'm still trying to tweak my rotations to make sure it's optimized.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
07/26/2012 06:15 AMPosted by Tapeon
One question I have is say during a boss fight and instead of the tank trying to hold the guy still, he kites around a bit, during these situations do you think it would be beneficial to switch from trying to use BS as my CP generator to using Hemo until i CAN get behind the boss and stab his !@#?

The generally accepted way to deal with such tanks is to !@#$% at them. If that doesn't work, yeah switch to hemo. You should still try to get behind the boss and BS, but its way better to use hemorrhage than energy cap cause you couldn't get positioning right.

If you wanna really increase your dps get enchants. That said I know it can be hard to get gold/justice/DEables for buying/making the mats.

You want to use Glyph of Backstab instead of Glyph of Eviscerate. Also at your item level it may be better to use Glyph of Shadowdance than the Hemo one, since only at around 390 ilvl does using a soft-hemo build make sense. Soft-hemo is using it just for the bleed, which is what you should be doing if you have the glyph.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Added a plug for http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4662478199 as well as removed the beta stuff since I don't have time for it. I will do a large edit of the whole guide once MoP hits.

Edit: I will write my take on the talents on the beta section.
Edited by Haileaus on 8/13/2012 4:02 PM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Finished my take on the first three tiers of the talent trees, will finish later. Wonder if anyone reads my crappy opinions....
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Finished with the talent changes. It was a long dinner.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
9670
08/13/2012 04:34 PMPosted by Haileaus
Finished my take on the first three tiers of the talent trees, will finish later. Wonder if anyone reads my crappy opinions....


I do - and that must have been some awesome dinner!

Just playing with some numbers (I'm not 100% sure how the weapon damage is done, is it base or AP modified?) it looks like hemo is still scaling better than backstab - so I'm guessing we'll continue weaving that in. If so I'm glad because otherwise there isn't so much to keep up.

Subterfuge opener - open with garrote and then an ambush? I know there were comments that garotte is actually doing more damage than ambush (this was from a pvp perspective). However with premed + ambush + hemo you're ready to rupture anyway to get your bleed up.

I do wonder if shadow focus will math out higher though? I did a little bit of a comparison between the two with very rough energy calculations (again thinking about a pvp burst perspective not pve - I was actually doing it looking at combo point generation) - and at least with my level 85 values you ended up energy starved and not being able to do any extra damage - its prolongs FW/MoS but will the extra 3 seconds mean extra damage (white hits will play a bigger factor in this I guess)?
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
08/15/2012 09:16 PMPosted by Willikins
I do wonder if shadow focus will math out higher though?

Like I was saying I haven't really done any tests or seen much math on this. Been really busy so I don't think I'll be getting to 90 on beta (only 86 or 87, and whatever the level is, just barely), though I'd really like to run some tests. Maybe I can learn to hack. I'd be the most polite hacker ever, only going onto one beta account and leaving everything just where I left it.

08/15/2012 09:16 PMPosted by Willikins
Subterfuge opener - open with garrote and then an ambush?

Hmm, if garrote does enough more damage to make up for the one less CP then sure. This will also give SV a bit more uptime. Actually depending on the damage of rupture it could be better to use eviscerate and not rupture during FW since we won't be worrying about getting high initial ruptures.

08/15/2012 09:16 PMPosted by Willikins
I'm guessing we'll continue weaving that in

Yeah, actually throughout the entire expansion it was better to weave hemo if you had the glyph. The only reason we didn't was because other glyphs gave more of a benefit until hemo's damage scaling made the glyph better in t13.

08/15/2012 09:16 PMPosted by Willikins
and that must have been some awesome dinner!


Oh you have no idea.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Numbers from beta testing: (thanks to Backstabi for running tests for me)

Stats:
69.73% Mast
21.92% Cri
There was no meta that increased crit damage bonus, which means the crits will be a bit low till further notice.

Ambush (MoS, no FW):
Hit (4): 37426*
Crit (4) 72426*

Ambush (MoS and FW):
Hit (8): 51419
Crit (5): 107885

Garrote (MoS):
Tick (67): 4355
Crit (11): 8710
Note: 6 ticks per use.

Rupture damage decreases once MoS fades if used with it up.

Rupture (no MoS, values should be accurate to within 2 damage):
Tick: 8919
Crit: 19623

Eviscerate (MoS and FW):
Hit (16): 87273
Crit (2): 158414*

*Large difference between min and max values combined with fairly low sample size.
Edited by Haileaus on 8/17/2012 7:59 PM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
From what I posted above it seems that Ambush as an opener will still do a lot more damage than Garrote plus give an extra CP.

Rupture will probably be applied very quickly, making the 25% damage bonus not worth it to use Garrote for.

Still, if we use SnD before Rupture than it would make sense to open with Garrote, though we would only do that if we couldn't redirect any CP to the boss before starting.

Garrote as an opener is further weakened by MoS and FW'd Eviscerates doing less damage than non-MoS'd ruptures, making opening with garrote and using eviscerate during FW a dps loss even if Garrote was the opener of choice.
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90 Undead Rogue
12265
I have a question; my apologies if its been addressed already, but basic search attempts yielded nothing.

As Subtlety, would opening with Shadowblades during Find Weakness be redundant, as the shadow damage from the ability already ignores armor? Should it be saved until after the duration of FW, or should it be used in conjunction since the extra CP generation from Shadowblades could net another Evicerate during FW?

Also, somewhat regarding your previous post, I was considering taking Nightstalker to gain the 25% to damage while stealthed; this would allow a full-damage Ambush without SV. The opening (as I hypothesize) would go Premed > SND > Ambush, followed by a rupture with whatever CPs you have.

Please feel free to point out any flaws in logic, or mechanics that I am unaware of.

Finally, thanks for your guide and your contribution to the Rogue community as a whole.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
08/20/2012 09:39 AMPosted by Maelius
but basic search attempts yielded nothing.

Thereby assuring you are more capable than 98.26% of forum goers.

08/20/2012 09:39 AMPosted by Maelius
As Subtlety, would opening with Shadowblades during Find Weakness be redundant

Almost definitely, though I have not seen any numbers on this. Still much of the damage of Shadowblades comes from the armor ignoring part (not sure on the percent but definitely a lot), and almost all of the damage of ShD comes from that. Overlapping them is almost definitely a bad move.

08/20/2012 09:39 AMPosted by Maelius
Also, somewhat regarding your previous post, I was considering taking Nightstalker to gain the 25% to damage while stealthed; this would allow a full-damage Ambush without SV.


As I mentioned in my talent writeup, subterfuge is likely going to be much better than both of the other two, mostly since it prolongs the life of FW.

As far as what the optimal opener is, I'm honestly not sure. If you have CP before the start (redirect to boss) then it will be SnD>prem'd ambush>Rupture. I think it likely that a 5 CP rupture will be the best course of action, though rather than gimping your duration. It's a thought though....
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Doing some tests for 4.0 level 85 DPS using my current gear. I will be testing stat priorities and dps both with and without the t12 2pc.

Gear will be the same minus the gloves and shoulders (not testing trinkets, and am using H Wrath and H Vial), so for the record the gear in t12 set is H shoulders and N gloves. One has a 50 agi gem, the other a 40 agi gem. For the full t13 set I have H Underdweller's Spaulders with 40 agi and 50 agi gems, and H t13 gloves with 40 agility.

I will be updating this thread as I go along.

Trying to get hit capped exactly....

773 hit = 7.55%
761 hit = 7.43%

OH GOD YES I HAVE MY GRAPHING CALCULATOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.01% per point means cap (7.50%) is 768 hit rating, though this may not be exact so further checks will be done.


To get expertise capped exactly....

749 exp = 7.31%
752 exp = 7.34%
771 exp = 7.53%

.01% per point means cap (7.50%) is 768 exp rating, with same disclaimer.

Also for clarity I will be posting my stats used before each test (will probably use LFR). I will use the Rogue Reforger Tool unless stats have changed on items rendering that impossible. Fingers crossed.
Edited by Haileaus on 8/22/2012 5:12 PM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Ok for Agi>>Hit(7.5%)=Exp(7.5%)>Mst>Hst>Cri I used the following...

<want_reforge>
hit = mst,exp,hst
cri = hit,exp,hst,mst
hst = hit,exp,mst
exp = mst,hit,hst
mst = hit,exp
</want_reforge>

# EP values before the cap (if any).
<ep_values>
cri = 2.75
exp = 3.90
hit = 3.90 # special hit
hst = 3.50
mst = 3.65
</ep_values>

#Caps: if you add one here, add entry in ep_values_post.
<caps>
exp = 768
hit = 768
</caps>

# EP values for capped stats after the cap.
<ep_values_post>
exp = 0
hit = 0 # spell hit
</ep_values_post>


Final stats:

Hit: 764 (7.46%)
Mst: 2614 (67.74%)
Hst: 2320 (29.93%)
Exp: 765 (7.47%)
Cri: 1123 (42.88%)

Nobody does LFR it seems, so numbers will be much harder to get. I may not be able to get proper numbers without going on live actually, especially since I still gotta write up what we already know.
Edited by Haileaus on 8/23/2012 7:56 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Rogue
8455
08/22/2012 05:15 PMPosted by Haileaus
Nobody does LFR it seems, so numbers will be much harder to get.

I'll gladly do a re-transfer of my character if that helps.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Honestly I'll probably just have to wait till live to do tests. I'm busy all weekend and will probably be on a lot less after that since I'll be back at school. I appreciate the offer, and maybe I'll take you up on it if I continue to try to do tests in Beta (definitely cheaper), but for now I plan on doing 85 stuff after the patch. I have a lot to update anyway.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Did a few MoP updates, hopefully I'll be able to do more later but I'm pretty busy being back in college and all.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
I updated most of my guide with what we know. Please feel free to correct me on anything I got wrong, though please know that I have heard a lot of things and unless there is proof offered I will not necessarily add it to my guide right away (I will look into it though).
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10830
So, Hail, assuming Subterfuge is taken, what's the ideal opening sequence for Sub now that there's the option for multiple Ambushes? Does it basically follow the same set of priorities as when you're in Shadow Dance, or does the shorter duration change anything about how those first few GCDs are spent? (I'm assuming it's effectively four GCDs in stealth that you get from Subterfuge, not three, yes?)
Edited by Rfeann on 8/28/2012 3:55 PM PDT
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100 Undead Rogue
17785
My opening sequence for Pve encounters, using Subterfuge has been:

Premed > SnD (2 CP) > Garrote > Ambush > Rupture 5 CP (If ambush crits)

or

Premed > SnD (2 CP) > Garrote > Ambush > Hemo > Rupture 5 CP (Ambush does not crit)

Although I think that it might be possible to use Ambush twice after garrote during those 3 seconds if you execute it flawlessly.

If you are soloing/questing and the mob can be CC'ed I change the opener:
Premed > SnD (2 CP) > Cheap Shot > Garrote > Ambush > Rupture (w/e the number of CPs I have).
Edited by Vallagard on 8/29/2012 9:09 AM PDT
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