Hail's Guide to Sub PvE (5.4)

90 Undead Rogue
10145
Good to know, thanks!
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90 Human Rogue
12190
DOn't know if it's been mentioned, but I'm having Crimson Tempest slightly beating eviscerate after seeing it somewhere I tried on the dummy and it's always slightly ahead, by about 2-3k damage. I'm pretty sure during Find Weakness Eviscerate would be better, but outside of that should we be using Crimson Tempest for... single target?!
Edited by Zanumas on 9/3/2012 9:30 PM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Oh man I really hope that's the case! I'd say if so then yeah use CT if the buff isn't already up, but don't bother with it if you are gonna overwrite the DoT. Still I'd like more verification.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10620
09/04/2012 03:53 PMPosted by Haileaus
Oh man I really hope that's the case! I'd say if so then yeah use CT if the buff isn't already up, but don't bother with it if you are gonna overwrite the DoT. Still I'd like more verification.


The damage is largely in the DoT. If you overwrite it you are going to cut its efficiency quite a lot.

Still, I'd be interested in how it compares if anyone posts some hard numbers vs. evis.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Oh of course cutting off the DoT would make it a lot less effective. Still it could be worth it maybe to cut off a tick or two depending on if the previous one crit or not. We'll see, maybe I'll be able to do some tests soon. Still getting busy fast and comp is still bad (though resting it on a fan pointing up seems to be working) so...ehh.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Managed to get on wow for a bit, though I was lagging a fair amount. Looks like Garrote>SnD>Ambush is a pretty good way to go, timing SnD as late as possible while still having room for ambush so that you can potentially get an HaT proc for a longer SnD duration.
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100 Undead Rogue
18475
Haileaus,

Did you come to a conclusion with regards to the most efficient opener or set of openers, depending on the situation?
Edited by Vallagard on 9/7/2012 7:47 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10620
Soloing mobs I will sometimes CS / Garrote to get the 10% and 20% bonuses to damage from Prey on the Weak talent and Sanguinary Veins right off the bat.

Bosses I will often do Garrote / Ambush in order to get Find Weakness and Sanguinary Veins going right off the bat, with an Ambush right at the end of Subterfuge's 3 second window to maximize Find Weakness up time.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Alright here's what I've found. I'll post it here first then put it in the guide right away. For the record I will never talk about what to do with stunable mobs in my guide unless they are part of an encounter, though I do appreciate input from posters. Well, as long as I don't have to correct it :p

By the way I'm acting way more confident here than I am, mostly since SnD placement might give an extra tick of energy that means a lower CP SnD will give blablabla basically grr but damnit you're reading my guide so do what I say! (Or help me out)

The most important thing about opening with Subterfuge is that you start with Garrote (for SV, though also probably better than Ambush coming out of stealth due to less energy cost anyway) and end with Ambush (not worth it to clip Garrote, and using it as late as possible gives max up-time on FW).

Depending on your energy regeneration and latency you may or may not be able to fit two abilities between Garrote and Ambush. What we do in between also changes depending on whether or not we could redirect some combo-points to the boss before the pull.

Following are the potential openers. I'm assuming HaT procs between the Garrote and the next ability.

With two abilities in between Garrote and Ambush:


With 0 CP before pull:
Prem/Garrote>Hemo>SnD>Ambush

With 1 CP before pull:
Prem/Garrote>SnD>Hemo>Ambush

With 2 CP before pull:
Garrote>Hemo>SnD>Ambush

With 3 CP before pull:
Prem/SnD>Garrote>Hemo>wait>Ambush

With 4 CP before pull:
Garrote>SnD>Prem/Hemo>Ambush (prem can go with Ambush too, but safer to go with Hemo)

With 5 CP before pull:
SnD>Prem/Garrote>Hemo>Rupture>Ambush


With one ability in between Garrote and Ambush: (NOTE: You always want to wait until the last possible moment to Ambush so as to prolong the FW buff as much as possible.)

With 0-1 CP before pull:
Prem/Garrote>SnD>Ambush

With 2 CP before pull:
Garrote>SnD>Prem/Ambush

With 3 CP before pull:
Prem/SnD>Garrote>Hemo>Ambush

With 4 CP before pull:
Garrote>SnD>Prem/Ambush

With 5 CP before pull:
SnD>Garrote>Hemo>Ambush
Edited by Haileaus on 9/7/2012 9:28 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11160
Hail, I may've asked you this once before, but with Pathal looking to step down as EJ's Sub Guru, have you thought to toss your name at Aldriana as a possible guidemaker replacement?
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
I have thought about it a bit but perhaps I should consider it a bit more seriously. Honestly though, it is pretty intimidating, especially since I probably won't be raiding over the school year. I guess it couldn't hurt to send a mail.

I am taking a computational modeling class though for which I may make a simulation of subtlety as a final project though. I say this mostly just cause I'm really excited about the class. :D

Edit:

Do you know if there's any form that I should write in? I've not been reading everything on EJ lately and haven't seen A. ask for anyone. If he did I could see there being some form that I should follow.
Edited by Haileaus on 9/7/2012 10:11 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11160
Pretty much all's I know is here: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t130581-rogue_forum_organization/
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100 Undead Rogue
18475
With 0 CP before pull:
Prem/Garrote>Hemo>SnD>Ambush

With 1 CP before pull:
Prem/Garrote>SnD>Hemo>Ambush


Assuming:
33% Haste --> 13.3 energy gained per second.
100 energy.

Energy requirements and feasibility of the combinations (just to provide mathematical support to your statements):

With 1 CP:
Premed (0 energy) > Garrote (45) > SnD (25) > Hemo (40) > Ambush (60) = 170 energy

Total energy in a 3 sec period (including gains): 100 + 40 + 8 (1 SnD energy tick) = 148 energy.

However, if you get 1 CP from HaT, you start SnD with 5 CP and with the proc from relentless strikes (100% chance), you receive 25 energy, so your total energy gained in the period is 173 energy.

If in the interval between garrote and SnD there are no critical strikes/heals (extremely unlikely situation) and the Relentless Strikes proc does not occur, you would have an 80% (4 CP) chance of getting the 25 energy from Relentless Strikes. This situation, could create a conundrum in the flow of the opener. But I agree with you in the sense that the best choice would be to hold Ambush until the very end of Subterfuge.
Edited by Vallagard on 9/7/2012 12:46 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
So I've been leveling my rogue, and went to check the guide for more info on sub stuff.

Nothing mentioned about weapon selection or AoE. I guess the AoE is pretty self explanatory, the reason I went looking for it was because I remembered hearing about crimson tempest, and forgot it was a finisher, and not a CP generator. As someone who has written guides I feel like, even though AoE should be obvious (FoK spam and CT finisher), it should still be in the guide for the not so quick people.

As for weapon choices I know dagger must be in the MH for backstab, but don't know if OH weapon choice matters like it does for combat which is slow/fast. I'm assuming dual daggers, but it's pretty hard to figure out by trying to armory random PvE sub rogues cause they all have the free daggers.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Assuming:
[etc]

Yeah it is true that 4 CP SnD means you have a 20% chance at not getting a 4 opener cycle. I kinda wanted to just power through these quickly and not do the energy regen math tbh, but rather say "if fourabilities then _____; elseif threeabilities then _____"

09/09/2012 04:21 AMPosted by Liax
Nothing mentioned about weapon selection or AoE. I guess the AoE is pretty self explanatory, the reason I went looking for it was because I remembered hearing about crimson tempest, and forgot it was a finisher, and not a CP generator. As someone who has written guides I feel like, even though AoE should be obvious (FoK spam and CT finisher), it should still be in the guide for the not so quick people.

Good point, agreed, I will fix this immediately.

Oh, and just so you know you want to get the CT bleed up as early as possible to activate SV.
Edited by Haileaus on 9/9/2012 10:22 AM PDT
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100 Orc Rogue
17435
Weapons:
Due to the importance of BS and Ambush, a dagger in the main hand is required for subtlety.


Remember, daggers are not needed to use Ambush!

At the end of cata I went with a hemo-only spec (had legendary dags and spec'd/glyph'd appropriately, dropping BS completely out of rotation). I liked the rotation, it was easier to manage and even stacked legendary stacks a little faster than a normal BS/Sub build.

Anyway - was just curious if Hemo-only "could" still be competitive come MoP, or does it fail so far behind it flops? Perhaps the damage differences between Hemo and BS (damage per energy) were greatly adjusted come 5.0 I may have missed things in the notes.

EDIT: Remember to consider the possibility of using a Sword/Axe/Fist in the main hand for Hemos/Ambushes, as Backstab is the only "spell" that requires a dagger.
Edited by Whiteytighty on 9/10/2012 3:16 AM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
09/10/2012 03:12 AMPosted by Whiteytighty
Remember, daggers are not needed to use Ambush!

I do. Ambush does significantly less damage when not using damage.

09/10/2012 03:12 AMPosted by Whiteytighty
I liked the rotation, it was easier to manage and even stacked legendary stacks a little faster than a normal BS/Sub build.

Hemo still does less dps than BS, and I actually found it harder to avoid wasting CP/energy, but I suppose a perfectly played Hemo is better than a badly played BS. Not by much tho.

09/10/2012 03:12 AMPosted by Whiteytighty
Anyway - was just curious if Hemo-only "could" still be competitive come MoP, or does it fail so far behind it flops?

Unless I'm mistaken Hemo scales similarly to how it does in Cata, which makes it a lot worse in the beginning of an expansion than at the end. This means that in the beginning of MoP Hemo-sub will be far less viable than BS sub, though at the end it might be...acceptable. Still we don't know what stats will look like at the end of the expansion, and part of what makes us even consider Hemo-sub is their synergy with our legendaries.

09/10/2012 03:12 AMPosted by Whiteytighty
Remember to consider the possibility of using a Sword/Axe/Fist in the main hand for Hemos/Ambushes, as Backstab is the only "spell" that requires a dagger.

True, and we are using Garrote more than we did in Cata. Still Ambush is pretty darn important and Hemo will still start pretty weak as compared to how it was with BS. Unless a MH is of significantly higher item-level than the wep it replaces, I highly doubt it will be worth it for anyone to be using a Hemo build.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11160
Assuming:
[etc]

Yeah it is true that 4 CP SnD means you have a 20% chance at not getting a 4 opener cycle. I kinda wanted to just power through these quickly and not do the energy regen math tbh, but rather say "if fourabilities then _____; elseif threeabilities then _____"

09/09/2012 04:21 AMPosted by Liax
Nothing mentioned about weapon selection or AoE. I guess the AoE is pretty self explanatory, the reason I went looking for it was because I remembered hearing about crimson tempest, and forgot it was a finisher, and not a CP generator. As someone who has written guides I feel like, even though AoE should be obvious (FoK spam and CT finisher), it should still be in the guide for the not so quick people.

Good point, agreed, I will fix this immediately.

Oh, and just so you know you want to get the CT bleed up as early as possible to activate SV.

Are we sure, though, that "FoK spam and CT finisher" is the route to go with? CT is tremendously more powerful than FoK, making it arguably viable against fewer targets than FoK would be. Given that the tier-14 two-piece bonus will increase Backstab (but not FoK) damage, I wonder whether it might be wiser to use a Backstab => CT approach up to a certain number of mobs, and only switch to FoK as the CP generator once that magic threshhold is crossed.

Course, on the flip side is that using Backstab means you're dealing a lot more damage to your current target than you otherwise would, which could mean it dies quicker, which could mean you're in greater risk of accidentally losing your CPs entirely (if Redirect is down or you fail to use it), of blowing a GCD on Redirect, or of being forced to use low-CP CTs, all of which would keep us from fulfilling our max DPS potential.

And then, of course, if you're in Shadow Dance, it may be an entirely different scenario for CP generation.

So, yknow, whatever. :)
Edited by Rfeann on 9/10/2012 1:08 PM PDT
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100 Orc Rogue
17435
Thanks Hail for your responses! I was not aware of Ambushes being better with a dagger (of course I never did test it either. had no reason to during cata and have only tried sub since 5.0 released).
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
09/10/2012 01:07 PMPosted by Rfeann
Are we sure, though, that "FoK spam and CT finisher" is the route to go with? CT is tremendously more powerful than FoK, making it arguably viable against fewer targets than FoK would be.

Good points. Generally in Cata there's been either one, two, or loads of targets, making the choice pretty easy. Because of the risks you mentioned earlier about your primary target dying, I'd say that unless that target is a boss using FoK will usually be the way to go. Still, if there are only 2-3 mobs (esp if one is a boss) then definitely go for the normal rotation but replacing Rupture/Evisc with CT. I'd say those are more cleave scenarios though anyway.
Edited by Haileaus on 9/10/2012 6:07 PM PDT
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