Hail's Guide to Sub PvE (5.4)

90 Undead Rogue
10145
A lot of this guide was written for 5.0 pre-mists. Some of this guide may need some changes. I definitely need to add a section on the proper use of Anticipation. If you have anything specific to contribute than by all means tell me. That said, if you aren't gonna contribute then kindly get the !@#$ out of my thread.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
10/1/12 edits:

Added Anticipation Optimization under Higher Optimization, removed some 4.3 stuff (set bonuses, bla).

Edit: Also changed the intro to sub message thingy and the intro to my guide message thingy. Does anyone really read this? Also did you know thingy is (according to the spell check in this little edit window) a word? lol.
Edited by Haileaus on 10/1/2012 5:08 PM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Edit 10/3: Made ShD action bar section relevant to MoP.
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90 Human Rogue
12360
I wish I could get a second dagger so I could come back to Subtlety with ya Hail, and maybe contribute something but RNG hates me.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Updated CDs. Apparently I hadn't put in Shadow Blades. It is in now.

Also made a few misc edits/clarifications. Guide as a whole should be more relevant, as some parts weren't updated for 5.0.
Edited by Haileaus on 10/14/2012 6:13 PM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
12360
How're you finding Subtlety at 90 Haileaus? I'm not playing any different than at 85 in 5.0 and it's quite a bit behind Combat for me. Though I haven't tried with my new shiney 489 dagger.

EDIT: Oh, you're combat :<

Why're you using tank trinkets, hail? DS trinkets are better than those.
Edited by Zanumas on 10/14/2012 9:52 PM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Yeah so I don't have any good daggers and I foolishly got rid of my DS ones. Oh and the ones I have in right now are so that I can queue for LFR.

And on that note, I now have ANOTHER sub guide!

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t130894-subtle_ways_subtlety/

Edit: But yeah I'll definitely post about what I think. Actually I may post it in the Daxarri post where ppl talk about what works (and what doesn't). I'll say what I think for combat too probably. Haven't tried mut. I'll be sure to post a link here though for you and anyone else who may care.
Edited by Haileaus on 10/15/2012 9:32 AM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
12360
But yeah I'll definitely post about what I think. Actually I may post it in the Daxarri post where ppl talk about what works (and what doesn't). I'll say what I think for combat too probably. Haven't tried mut. I'll be sure to post a link here though for you and anyone else who may care.


Assassination is terribly boring, Combat is doing alright for me right now - it's decently fast paced. I'd love to play Subtlety again - but I've found it to be rather weak in comparison to both the other specs atm. Maybe I was missing something but I did about 45k on every boss in the 1 heroic I ran, while I was doing 55k-60k as Sin/Combat in heroics. Fully reforged/gemmed for each spec before trying them as well.

EDIT: These numbers were about 10 ilvls earlier without the 489 dagger.
Edited by Zanumas on 10/15/2012 8:24 PM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Noted in the EP section that the current version of Shadowcraft is wrong regarding the value of crit.
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90 Human Rogue
12895
11/15/2012 08:46 AMPosted by Haileaus
Noted in the EP section that the current version of Shadowcraft is wrong regarding the value of crit.


I confirm, ran the crit reforge on my gear today, did a few lfr's TDs, and even a second time for the sake of getting a tot from a random lfr rogue. My avg dps across the board just flat out dropped.

Instead, I reforged Mastery > Haste > Crit results came out much better.

Before I reforged to crit I was running Haste > Mastery > Crit, But even with that the haste somewhat feels wasted with how sub works (SnD).
Edited by Roxell on 11/18/2012 12:07 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Thanks a lot for telling me this. Unfortunately I really need logs in order to be sure and convince the SC people that there is something iffy with the modeling. Are there any numbers you can give me, even if its just what fights/how many you did with each reforge?

Either way I'll try really hard to get my problem set done quickly so I can run some tests of my own.
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90 Human Rogue
12895
Thanks a lot for telling me this. Unfortunately I really need logs in order to be sure and convince the SC people that there is something iffy with the modeling. Are there any numbers you can give me, even if its just what fights/how many you did with each reforge?

Either way I'll try really hard to get my problem set done quickly so I can run some tests of my own.


Unfortunately no : / I do not run parses through logs, "wish I could". All I have is recount, and my brain xD. I tend to just Jot down my end results while testing.

In the end, when you factor in all the movement and time not spent on boss in real time you get your "true" results.

Sorry I couldn't be more of help there. Need more Sub Rogues IMO.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
11/18/2012 12:34 PMPosted by Roxell
Sorry I couldn't be more of help there. Need more Sub Rogues IMO.

All good, having results (even if they aren't gotten scientifically enough) is good. And yeah. Hell I'm not even playing sub, though that's due to not having a second dagger and hating my life too much when I chain run heroics.
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100 Human Rogue
9155
What is the best weapon combination for rogue? 2x daggers or 1 fist weapon and 1 dagger?
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
For subtlety two daggers is ideal, but a slow offhand is alright if it does a lot more dps.

For assassination two daggers is required.

For combat a slow mainhand is required, and either a dagger or a slow weapon can be used in the offhand. (dps matters most for combat, slow is technically better but you need to be able to use killing spree optimally)
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90 Human Rogue
12895
So.... shame on me..... I didn't know hemorrhage DOT doesn't crit, till last night. This bothers me.
Edited by Roxell on 12/6/2012 2:31 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Really? I never cared to notice either. Doesn't matter though except that hemo now doesn't double-dip into crit anymore.
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90 Human Rogue
12895
Any words on arrowflight medallion? the new trinket from OSW.
Edited by Roxell on 12/10/2012 11:33 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Seems roughly equal to Terror in the Mists. Both are + agi and chance to proc crit, same amount of agi. Difference is just in uptime of proc, with Medallion proccing for about half the crit about twice as often. That said what I said about the proc is based on the fact that they are the same ilvl and certain trinkets in this tier have different chances to proc. Basically there's a chance I could be wrong. Also Shadowcraft has Medallion as a bit below LFR Terror, but then ShC often has the wrong proc changes/EP values for trinkets so I wouldn't trust that.

EDIT: Posted on Shadowcraft discussion on EJ about the trinket, will make another post here when there's a response.
Edited by Haileaus on 12/10/2012 6:11 PM PST
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