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History in Brief: The original “Dalaran and Depleted Raiding Pop” thread was posted near the start of the BC I believe. The thread was pages and pages long, and had posts from many of the Dalaran server regulars, guild leaders, and such. Best of all, it not only laid out complaints about the current status of Dalaran as a server and raiding in general, but many of the posts also contained ideas for solutions. Even 2 years later people were still bumping the post on the Dalaran forums for kicks. I am not, however, expecting anything similar in this post considering the very poor condition of PvE (and even worse PvP) quality we currently have on Dalaran. Many of the original posters in that first thread have been long gone from this server.
First, let me start by saying F@%& Blizzard and their 10 person Cata raiding. The amount of 25 person guilds in WoW that have exploded because of how blizzard has handled 10 person loot and achievements is ridiculous. I did not start and continue playing WoW to play with 9 other people no matter how awesome they are (sh^t, if that was the case I would have continued playing console games with real-life friends). I am not sure why Blizzard decided to abandon the “massively” part of MMO, but it seems to be that their subscriptions have declining horribly ever since the loot change to 10 person raids. We need to start calling MMO: “Minor Multiplayer Online”. The worse part of this for me as a vanilla raider is the tiny@$$ guilds we end up with - if your in a 10 person raiding guild you’re lucky if there are ever 3 people online when there isn’t a raid going on. When WotLK was coming to an end and with the upcoming release of “guild achievements” I purposefully started filling the guild with casual gamers and we reached almost 600 toons at one point. It was kinda nice to log on have nearly 50 people online during raid times, and 6-15 people on during non-raid times, it was reminiscent of vanilla WoW.
Secondly, F@%& Blizzard again and their “rushed” content patches and content nerfs. I never would have imagined that when a “Deathwing” boss encounter was finally patched, that my guild would clear it the first week. What the hell is the point of raiding if a semi-causal (or semi-hardcore whatever) guild like mine can kill DeathwingN the first week of release? Hell, there are so few functioning 25 person raiding guilds on Dalaran, that in the Deathwing patch we are the #3 guild on the server in 25 person raids after Gaia and Legitimate.... that’s truly pathetic. Compare that to us being in 20th or whatever back in WotLK in 25 person raiding rank on Dalaran. That means something like 16 guilds who were doing 25 person raiding in WotLK are have converted to 10 mans, disbanded, stopped playing, or server/faction transferred (which again just happens to coincide with WoW’s huge subscriber loss).
Finally, with the loss of Doom, and finally Ascend this expansion Dalaran has REALLY become a permanent backwater server for pve, with it’s best times behind it. Be that as it may, my guild has never stopped having a focus on 25 person raiding for all of the BC/WotLK/Cata. Maybe it’s become ignorant stubbornness on my part at this point, but we have not basically not missed a single day of 25 person raiding this entire expansion. I recently lost 3 core raiders to a server transfer (1 tank, 2 healers), so I am once again attempting to recruit out of a pool (or is it a puddle?) of very limited choices on Dalaran. So at this point I either need to find 2-3 great players or look for a 10 person guild that might be receptive to absorbing into HoR for some 25 person raiding.
This is so extremely self deprecating. The whole paragraph this quote comes from is just complaining that you guys aren't as bottom of the barrel as you should be. If it makes you feel any better you guys are actually #4, if you count the sunday 25man pug that is 3/8H on the server.
I will agree that Dalaran is a sinking ship, that need to be abandoned. Get to the life boats!!!
I won't speak for anyone but myself, but I've been on this server; on this character since February 2005. So here we go..
Here's why I participate in 10-man content. Please show me the 25-man guild that:
Is accepting a Warrior
Will allow me to Main Tank-not OT, not trash tank...Main Tank
Raids twice a week 9-12 server
Has a playerbase consisting mostly of 30-somethings, married, & kids
I really pursued 10-man content as the GM of AL, when I continued to want to play warrior as a tank and couldn't do it anywhere else. 2 days a week starting at 9pm provides the least amount of "static" in my personal life. Not hearing: "I was so drunk that..." stories =or= having my ears bleed from the latest "cool" word or phrase being run in the dirt. I got into a semi-regular group over the summer and between 2-3 of the players, if i heard the word "Beast" one more time, I was going to reach through my headset. I actually stopped logging on that alt for months just to avoid being invited.
I would take Acceptable Losses to 25-man, if I could find 15 more "30-somethings" that are exactly like the 12 people I have right now.
Secondly, F@%& Blizzard again and their “rushed” content patches and content nerfs.
I'm not that severe, but I am disappointed in the overall product of Cataclysm especially considering they left content on the table and decided to close shop. Where was the water raid zone? Where was the Old God raid? Those aren't Cana speculation...those are two raid zones we were told about. Looking at Cataclysm, the first raid content had an "air" boss. Firelands broughts back in touch with a "fire" boss. With this theme, we should have taken on a "water" & "earth" boss that lead into fighting Death Wing. Even defeating Death Wing we should have been exposed to corrupting element of another Old God. Defeating that Old God should lead us into MoP...but that's not what happened...or even close...
Finally, with the loss of Doom, and finally Ascend this expansion Dalaran has REALLY become a permanent backwater server for pve, with it’s best times behind it.
Every server but a few, has this exact same belief. Every one thinks they are the worst server. When I read the forums of every server I have an alt on, I see the same comment.
so I am once again attempting to recruit out of a pool (or is it a puddle?) of very limited choices on Dalaran.
IMO - you can thank LFR for that but also the raiding guilds themselves. LFR provides a format that will let people "raid" when they want with no commitment beyond logging in. Raiding guilds often are looking for specifics: ilvl, experience, days, times, and to a degree "get to the back of the line new guy".
In order for me to join you, I have to have appropriate gear, prove to you with logs or trial run that i have experience/capability, I have to come on your days, I have to raid at your times, and when the tank shield drops I potentially have to get in the back of the line. This says nothing of the fact I have to tell 11 'ish' people that I've been hanging out with for the last year for some, two years for others and as many as 7 years.
So at this point I either need to find 2-3 great players
Define "great". I think that's an issue in and of itself. Consider, all the elements that a recruiting guild is looking for (not necessarily YOU, but in general): a player with 'x' gear. available on 'x' days. Someone to adhere to a specific schedule, a specific loot system. "Great" is a funny thing. The last few new players we've picked up were lacking in gear and recent progression. However, 10-minutes of talking to them it was obvious they had some background. Of the 3 we brought in to raid, 1 server transferred off the minute he got 5/5 tier with weapon and oh; the other two have been 100% raid attendance and actually have greatly contributed to our success. All 3 were actively just looking for a spot and a chance but couldn't find a roster spot.
look for a 10 person guild that might be receptive to absorbing into HoR for some 25 person raiding.
As a 10-person guild, why would I want to? How could I even sell that to 9-11 other people? You need to fill 3 spots, but you want me to tell 9 other people "Hey you raided nearly 100% for the last year but we're going to join this 25-man guild and you're going to be a bench player till you Prove yourself and someone ahead of you moves on. I can't speak for other guilds, but in our guild we have 100% funded repairs, gems, enchants, feasts and flasks. All raiders have to do is "show up" on time and ready. Why would I give up 100% control of what I enjoy 'just' to raid 25-man?
It still shocks me to see BRAND NEW Level 1 guilds forming up nearly every day. Why?
look for a 10 person guild that might be receptive to absorbing into HoR for some 25 person raiding.
Sure I can explain why a 10 person raiding guild might want to join HoR and bring over their whole 10+ person raid. HoR selects it's raid slots based on combat logs and performance. We do NOT select our raiding spots based on who is the biggest kiss@$$ or who we are friends with or not friends with. While there are some situations (such as blizzard making a fight not melee friendly or judging the skills of tanks) that might make determining who is out-performing who less clear, we record each raid night and post it up to WorldofLogs on our forums for EVERYONE in the guild to see. In fact, during WotLK I used to post our logs to 3 parsers: EHFS (EventHorizenFightStatistics), WoL (WorldofLogs), and WMO (WoWMeterOnline). As the last 2 parsers stopped updating consistently we ended up just going with WorldofLogs. While I agree that combat logs have to be parsed by human wisdom and not just looked at for pure numbers, they are still a good record of abilities used, EHPS, DamageDone, potion usage, and more. And we have a simple rule; All things being equal (IE: no one died, got frozen in some mechanic, etc) if you can consistently out DPS me, you get my spot. If you can consistently out heal me, you get my spot. Everyone in the guild knows this rule. It's been our rule since the middle of the Burning Crusade. Any guildie can site the logs and let me know if they feel their performance deserves a higher spot and often they do, and I sit down with them and discuss it.
New raiders go into the slots first, not last when they join, so there is no real siting on a bench. I sit whoever the lowest performing players were last raid to bring initiates so that we can specifically assess their abilities right away on the first raids they attend.
So, in reality, would I be looking to bring in 20 raiders that are better then everyone else in HoR and based on their better performance replace my whole core? Well, no. But would I consider absorbing in 10 dedicated raiders who are interested and intent on becoming part of HoR and integrating fully with us? 10 raiders who are gonna help push our guild forward into heroic progression? 10 raiders who would abide by the rule I just listed in the above paragraph? Absolutely I would. Sh*t, I can even work in 2 tanks at this point (even a warrior one).
For recruitment purposes, when you join, HoR calculates a bonus into our raiding point system based on the recruits ilvl average of current, equipped, main spec gear (we have been doing this since the Burning Crusade btw, way before ilvl became so well used) so that you are not starting at zero.
HoR also provides most of what you just covered for our raiding ranks as well, in particular: Free enchants for all main specs (This includes item enhancements like belt buckles and leg armor kits etc. All free gems for our raiding ranks, cut for you (we are not currently full gemming with epic gems until blizzard lets us prospect them from pyrite ore or something). We have full raiding repairs each raid night for the raiding ranks. We provide fish feasts and Flask Cauldrons every official raid night. The only thing we ask people to bring is a stack of 20 of their mana/DPS potions which we do not provide.
edit: I cannot however, make anyone like 25 person raiding over 10 person raiding. That is up to the individual.
Edited by Slayerprime on 3/8/2012 1:23 PM PST
Cana we raid 3 times a week at those times, and a great majority of us are 30 somethings. As far as tanking goes, it's whoever is best for the encounter which loosely translated means if you're not a DK you don't get to sit in front of heroic modes bosses.
We run our guild in much the same manner as AL. Everything is provided, but with hindsight I think this has contributed to the decline. It's far too easy to be a "raider" these days with a system like that. It's hard to care when all you have to do is show up. The skill level of our raid these days would make anyone in the guild pre t11 throw up in their mouth. We have to accept it though, in order to even field a 25 man. I used to get angry, now I am in some zen state where jimmy crack corn and I don't care.
I'm not suggesting that AL "get absorbed" by Legitimate. I guess my point is that there are 25 mans out there who do things the same way. Raid size has nothing to do with how management operates. You can be intimate and on a first name basis with 25 people as well as 10.
Easy epics, 10 mans and shared loot/achievements destroyed 25 man raiding. I sincerely hope Blizzards considers just ditching the format instead of going through the motions like they care about it. Maybe then 10 man heroics in very certain circumstances won't require a specific class comp, or won't be such a joke compared to their 25 man counterparts like H Baleroc.
I'm a "Dalaran Original," God help me, and have been a guild or raid leader for most of the last seven years (my original main was "Winsome" from Heroes of the Command way back in Vanilla - go HotC! (. . . and RIP as well)).
I think my problem with 25 man raiding is that, in the absence of artificial incentives (as in "exclusive access to loot / content"), it just isn't worth the effort. While both sizes have "cat herding" aspects, the simple truth is it is easier to herd 9 cats than 24 (especially if you use a pitchfork, but that's another story).
I don't necessarily blame Blizzard for that - on a "head to head" basis, 10s just offer more "net fun" than 25s for most people. But I don't see that changing.
Less time I checked 3 times is more than 2 times... =)
When I read that, it makes me feel bad about myself. Prior to Acceptable Losses, based on my experience, I've never been the best choice for the encounter. I was the best person to tank Orange in the corner. I was the best at being classified as a "tank" but never tanking as the MT or the OT, but ineligible to be classified as DPS.
The last 3 weeks I was the "OT" that swapped to DPS for single tank fights, last night I was "MT" front to back. In the 5 years prior to AL, that never happened.
I think i'm a good tank and the current people I play with think I'm a good tank, but in every venue NOT Acceptable Losses, I'm terrible...go figure.
No, I couldn't. I had to tolerate about 20 people and held private whispers with 2-3 people. Those same 2-3 people we formed the guild with. I can only take so many: "I was so wasted"; "we got so high"; and as previously illustrated as recent as last summer; "that's so beast." "i'm switching mains to a hunter because they are so beast"; "heroic mode is so beast".
No, I can't be intimate on a first name basis with 25 people at this time.
All I'm going to say is that I've DE'd more loot in 10-man raiding then 5 years COMBINED prior to 10-man raiding. There is nothing more satisfying as a 10-man raider than to see mail agility gear &/or range slot weapons drop from every boss...and not have a raiding hunter. My favorite memory of t11? Defeating Chimaeron for our guild first kill and getting double mail bracers (INT & AGI respectively), then repeating those same drops not 1 week, not 2 weeks, not 3 weeks...4 straight weeks of double mail bracers. First 4 kills yielded the same 2 drops 4 staight weeks..."easy"..."awesome".
You can't take my words as literal as you are, Cana. When I say best for the job I mean things like a DK dealing with H Hagara or eating more Void Bolts on Skittles. Blood Shield is pretty strong/Op atm so it just makes sense. That being said, I still MT plenty even though BS might be better on Volleyball because of the drain.
The drop % in 10 mans can be rough, but my point was making the boss lootable is generally easier. Hell Blood Queen dropped her tank shield only once for us in over 30 kills, 264 or 277 version. I tanked from fresh 80 to hard mode Ulduar with a titansteel shieldwall for the very same reason. Thankfully Cata has been much better to me, and I've gotten sword and board relatively quickly each tier.
I understand your point, but you skipped over mine.
And finally, I am only pointing out the likeness between our guilds governments and that it does indeed work in 10 as well as 25. We're both social democracies, we should be friends.
This thread shouldn't become 10 v 25, nor should it become a recruit thing. I just enjoy the debate while I can before the trolls arrive; be that I am right or wrong.
Edited by Alshar on 3/8/2012 3:14 PM PST
remember when i used to spam trade chat and get banned all the time? man was I a d bag...
anyways, to stay on topic...
the expansion is still a long time away, they haven't opened beta yet, etc... this is just going to be a bunch of blah blah blah speculation and QQ about the past and current state of PvE/ the realm / etc.
i'm not going to say anything because it's speculation and i dont do hard modes. IMO this thread's just gonna end up falling into the troll pit if it hasn't already.
thank you to the people who have made this game fun...both the elitists and casuals because without both of them we wouldn't have arguments and entertainment. thats all that really matters IMO. Dalaran has been great for that, but then again, i've been here trolling for ages...
man, im really ranting and not caring about grammar,etc. i better stop here.
edit: the FUN is all that really matters. i know i worded it poorly, but yeah... FUN FUN FUN FUN
Edited by Puddinpopz on 3/8/2012 5:02 PM PST
This server has been on a slow decline since BC. That is quite true. I remember such guilds as Nullus, Downfall, and other high fliers being the ones who were pushing content and really hammering away at T6 early on. The reason they were able to do that was the infrastructure of feeder guilds that grew up beneath them. Guilds that stayed in T5 for some time before the attunements were lifted almost always lost players to those higher end guilds. Thus you had the BC bottleneck.
Fast forward to LK when the raiding was a little more open. That, in my opinion, was probably the most open I have seen this server in terms of movement and recruiting. Guilds that would have been mid-tier in BC could suddenly put 25 people out and crush some content. If you followed wowprogress during LK, you saw there were a ton of guilds in heroics and working to get up that ladder throughout the expansion.
I have mixed feelings about Cata. The raiding has been a little different than the previous two expacs, mainly because of the lack of content outside of raiding. Sure you can level another alt, but after a while it gets old. As a result many 25 man guilds packed in during T11 and T12 leaving a big hole to in that category. I actually think this might have been a good thing.
But wait, you say? Tony...you are daft! You are cracked!
Nope. The thing that many of us need to realize is that WoW is a 7 year old consumer product that has passed that time period remarkably well. Blizz has done pretty well (with the exception of Cata content) at trying to keep us all entertained. The thing is that we as players have all aged 7 years as well. I know from when I started playing this game I have changed alot personally and professionally. This has also been reflected in my gameplay. I am quite sure that many others on this server feel the same way.
Those of us that have played since Vanilla should honestly look at where we are as people and recognize that we aren't in college anymore. We have gotten older as the game has aged. It's like that South Park episode where Stan turns 10 and everything tastes, looks, sounds, and smells like sh*t. He got older and his tastes changed. We have gotten older and our gaming tastes have become more sophisticated. Though in further comparison, some of us have become cynical arseholes, again like Stan, and think that everything sucks.
The key for me is to take things one day at a time and try to enjoy raiding with the people who remained after the great 25 man collapse. Have a drink, have some laughs, and just smell the roses. I have raided like Ascend in the past. Don't care for it much. I much prefer logging in to play with people I like, kill some pixels, and trash talk Selaxis when we wipe. I enjoy that small thing and it keeps me logging in.
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