old god = dead titan (facts inside)

90 Undead Priest
9470
I've reading a lot of posts about c'thun, old god this and that, and I'm putting some pieces together.

Fact: sargeras was a titan
Fact: ragnaros and friends ruled azeroth when the titans came
Fact: titans are more powerful than elemental lords
Fact: titan and old god are almost equally matched
Fact: titans charged dragons
Fact: titans leave wheel of eternity behind
Fact: old gods corrupt dragons
now a bit of thinking

+ The mission of the dragons is fulfilled. It makes no sense that this mission was to kill one of their own, so it looks more plausible that this mission was to learn how to do stuff on their own (thrall replaces neltharion for a time, kalec is made aspect, ysera, nozdormu and alextrasza resist corruption)

+ Which means, races of azeroth (and alien friends) learn to fight the big fights on their own.

The question is: why this mission?

If you think back,
FACT: corruption was there before the burning legion, and Sargeras has fallen, then commanded the Legion.

Although sargeras approach on hell was a bit more fiery, titan corpses could "evolve" into old gods, spreading the undoing with the same power they created life. These "sons of cthulu" needed a place to be confined, and guardians to keep them quiet. Is that why the Titans shaped azeroth in the first place, and put there people who would do everything in their power (and a wheel of magic to power them) to keep the cemetery door closed ?

comments ?
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85 Night Elf Druid
9815
Weren't the Old Gods on Azeroth already when the Titans came by?

And I do believe the Mission of the Aspects was to stop the Cataclysm/Hour of Twilight, not find mortals who could protect Azeroth.
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90 Gnome Mage
11960
The Old Gods have the power to retcon history and troll the lore.

In all seriousness, a dead Titan is a dead Titan.
Edited by Somniac on 3/11/2012 1:40 PM PDT
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85 Troll Druid
2945
: titans leave well of eternity behind


We're not even sure if blizzard still remembers this given their constant chronology changes in the old god story.

It's still "Canon" but given blizzards track record they'll prob retconn it.

03/11/2012 01:06 PMPosted by Nordanne
+ The mission of the dragons is fulfilled. It makes no sense that this mission was to kill one of their own, so it looks more plausible that this mission was to learn how to do stuff on their own (thrall replaces neltharion for a time, kalec is made aspect, ysera, nozdormu and alextrasza resist corruptio


I wouldn't try to make sense of it, It's based on terrible writing, time travel plotlines and lack of explanation. At best we can assume that they sacrificed their "Heart" gifts to fuel the final attack from the dragonsoul.. one capable of unmaking deathwing.. Or you can take the "destiny route" and attempt to make that concept sound less mentally impaired.





03/11/2012 01:06 PMPosted by Nordanne
The question is: why this mission?
Again, blizzard implying a "mission" or a "destiny" is pretty bad on the lore part. The aspects were charged with maintaining a world that was forced into order, Their charges cover almost every threat to the terraformed world when combined with Titan machinery and seed races.

Their jobs can not just "End" Unless every druid covers the Greens and Reds, every mage cover the blue and bronze and every shaman cover the Blacks the planet will collapse on itself. Even so the aspects loss of immortality never said that the dragonflight lost their powers.. but if they all did then blizzard has really messed up.



03/11/2012 01:06 PMPosted by Nordanne
corruption was there before the burning legion, and Sargeras has fallen, then commanded the Legion


Legion corruption is a "different kind of high" than old god corruption. Legion corruption is basically giving you an addictive drug that enhances you to the point where you feel like a god. It doesn't make you instantly evil by force but would make you evil out of your own greed and pride for power. Sargaras could have been "Corrupted" by the nathrazim but chances are he joined based off his own rationalization and philosophy. This is why there are demons not affiliated with the legion.. such as the demons that teamed up with Illidain or Legion deserters like Sal'salabim.(who allowed to stay in the lower city and drink, showing that it's more of a hatred for the legion itself then just demons)


Old god corruption is essentially mind molestation that ends up mutating and twisting your body over time, Lovecraft stuff essentially.

03/11/2012 01:06 PMPosted by Nordanne
Although sargeras approach on hell was a bit more fiery, titan corpses could "evolve" into old gods, spreading the undoing with the same power they created life. These "sons of cthulu" needed a place to be confined, and guardians to keep them quiet. Is that why the Titans shaped azeroth in the first place, and put there people who would do everything in their power (and a wheel of magic to power them) to keep the cemetery door closed ?


From what we know Titans are giant metallic men..not THAT far from their own creations which could hint that the titans themselves are artificial, Heck I have a crack theory that the titans are small organic race that uses mecha bodies... but besides that.. Titans are not gods.. in the sense of the warcraft definition of a state of being that is shared by the incomprehensible old gods and Elune.

from what we've learned in their ancient cities is that they use incredibly advanced technology and are very skilled with science in almost every field.. from a powerful understanding of living things and elementals too the tricks of Arcane/ Timespace and matter.

They seem like gods, but they aren't, just a very advanced race.

That being said they wouldn't degrade into old gods upon corruption...
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14 Night Elf Priest
40
No.
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1 Blood Elf Mage
0
Olds Gods were already here when the Titans (including Sargeras) arrived.

They're an homage to Greek mythology, though in a funny twist of naming conventions, in Greek myths the Titans were locked away by the Olympian Gods (who were kinda old, so Old Gods >.>) while in Azeroth the Old Gods (with Olympic level powers -- they're the best at what they do: total mayhem!) were locked away by Titans.
Edited by Malanis on 3/11/2012 3:01 PM PDT
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85 Troll Druid
2945
03/11/2012 02:59 PMPosted by Malanis
They're an homage to Greek mythology, though in a funny twist of naming conventions, in Greek myths the Titans were locked away by the Olympian Gods (who were kinda old, so Old Gods >.>) while in Azeroth the Old Gods (with Olympic level powers -- they're the best at what they do: total mayhem!) were locked away by Titans.


Though that sounds like an source for the titan/old god story.. Blizzard actually got the Titans Vs. Oldgod concept directly from August Derleths Cthlulu Mythos.

You see HP.Lovecraft, one of the founders of modern horror fiction is well known for introducing the concept of comsic evil and indifference and concepts that expressed how Alien the universe could be. But what wasn't commonly known is that he didn't write many of his books Alone, he acquired a group of shadow writers to help expand his interlinked universe(Lovecrafts short stories and novels were all linked under the same universal cannonity).

Some of these writers got the pictures and others didn't. Now of course lovecraft died somewhat young (early 40's) but his shadow writers still expanded the his universe until eventually lovecrafts fiction was highly recognized(Lovecraft never lived to see his work truely accepted). Realizing what Lovecrafts works had become, His producer August Dereleth gathered the lore from the various stories and coined it into the Cthulu Mythos.

Essentially a network of defined lovecraftian lore that could be used by other writers to create their own lovecraftian work. To do this he essentially had to make sense of all the various deities in the lovecrafts works and make them sync, since the universe of the Cthulu Mythos was mostly implied and was never really the plot of any of the books.

It's sort of like how the Tolkien explained all the history and lore in the simmilacrum which made sense of the stuff we were clueless about in the ACTUAL story in the lord of the rings.

Anyways, Derleth had issues understanding the meaning and depth of lovecrafts books. He didn't understand that all of Lovecrafts insane deities like Cthulu were not necessarily evil but indifferent to the laws of reason and morality that mankind had. So essentially Derleth made up a bunch of greek like deities to represent GOOD and turned all the classic Lovecraft deities into EVIL. True lovecraft fans do not consider this Canon at all. However DND and Fantasy fans EAT it up for some reason.

Blizzard being composed of Fantasy nerds couldn't help but implement the alien horror of lovecraft fiction into the Warcraft universe. I don't consider this a shameful act as Wizards of the East coast pulled the same thing with the Illithied. However given that they were likley more into Derleths Cthulu Mythos then Lovecrafts short horror stories, they based the titans and old gods off the relationship between the Great Old ones and the Elder gods.
Edited by Onimontu on 3/11/2012 3:41 PM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
9470
Someone said at last blizzcon's lore panel that "noone have ever seen a titan before", so i'm discarding the metallic giant description (which could be based on their guardians in uld*) and the description of sargeras in "the last guardian" (a retcon of a retcon itself I think).

There were old gods in azeroth, yes, that doesn't mean they didn't just said "hey, since there's a dead one of us in there, let's just throw in all our dead and shut the door"

I also agree the sargeras and old god bad mojo are different, again one was alive, the others not.

I'm just trying to make sense of it cause of 2 things: cata end really REALLY bugged me, and sargeras plot to just kill himself on azeroth makes no sense, never made, thrusting mannoroth's orcs to complete the task... he could NOT have chosen to die there for no reason

tks for all replies
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90 Undead Priest
9470
PS: onimontu I'm your fan
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85 Troll Druid
2945
For Example. Dereleth placed all the Great Old Ones into Elemental casts with Cthulu being Water based as an example.

Sound Familiar? The old gods in warcraft had deep lore roots with elementals.. At least earlier on when C'thun was described as being Elemental in nature.

There are also six Elder Gods which hold vigil over the great old ones..

There are six titans of the pantheon (counting Sargeras) that imprisoned the Old gods under Azeroth...
Edited by Onimontu on 3/11/2012 3:50 PM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
9470
Before the frozen throne some were under the impression that ragnaros, therazane and such were the old gods... now I can see where the retcon hit and why.

Now I think the elemental planes worked to lock elemental lords AND keep old gods further "away" from this dimension. Two levels of locks. A third with the Aspects.

And I say this because Neltharion was contaminated by the voices of the deep early on, he being the only elemental aspect. They weight of the world described in the Thrall book

Something deep called azshara at the end of the wheel of eternity trilogy, neltharion was already sick in the head, so sargeras didn't breach these locks, they were faulty in the first place. Nihilism rules.
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90 Gnome Mage
11960
You keep saying 'Wheel of Eternity' and it distracts me from the rest of your post.
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90 Undead Priest
9470
damn, "well of eternity" .... my bad, pure Engrish fail! Thanks for making me sound less stupid =)
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
03/11/2012 03:59 PMPosted by Nordanne
Before the frozen throne some were under the impression that ragnaros, therazane and such were the old gods... now I can see where the retcon hit and why.


Huh?

No one thought that to the best of my knowledge...
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85 Troll Druid
2945
03/11/2012 03:43 PMPosted by Nordanne
Someone said at last blizzcon's lore panel that "noone have ever seen a titan before", so i'm discarding the metallic giant description (which could be based on their guardians in uld*) and the description of sargeras in "the last guardian" (a retcon of a retcon itself I think).


True, because the Titan Warders were so close to just being "titans" that if we ever see one will be scratching our heads wondering what the difference is.

As for Sargerus, The guy altered himself to appear godly to demons.



03/11/2012 03:43 PMPosted by Nordanne
There were old gods in azeroth, yes, that doesn't mean they didn't just said "hey, since there's a dead one of us in there, let's just throw in all our dead and shut the door"


If old gods were the result of titans dieing, like a naaru transforming into a void god, then they would have taken the necessary precautions to prevent their undead forms from doing anything. Placing their dead bodies there under those circumstances would be like placing a scorpion in a baby carriage. If anything they would have storied their dead on the transportation they came in on (speaking of which, I really want to see a Titan space vessel one day). Or at least in space prisons like demons.



03/11/2012 03:43 PMPosted by Nordanne
sargeras plot to just kill himself on azeroth makes no sense, never made, thrusting mannoroth's orcs to complete the task... he could NOT have chosen to die there


Sargeras doesn't want to kill himself on Azeroth. The burning legion conquerors worlds for the sake of a religious philosophy and perhaps to devour the pure arcane energy it has (many theories as to why). Blizzard said Azeroth was unique compared to Other titan forged worlds and could very well have some special property that the legion wants. Then again the legion has been foiled multiple times on this world.. and war based on pride seems to be prevalent in the legion.

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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
03/11/2012 03:43 PMPosted by Nordanne
Someone said at last blizzcon's lore panel that "noone have ever seen a titan before", so i'm discarding the metallic giant description (which could be based on their guardians in uld*) and the description of sargeras in "the last guardian" (a retcon of a retcon itself I think).


You're misinterpreting it.

No one -on azeroth- has seen a titan.

As in they were confirming that no one in instances such as Thorim or Hodir, were titans, as opposed to constructs.
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85 Troll Druid
2945
03/11/2012 03:59 PMPosted by Nordanne
Before the frozen throne some were under the impression that ragnaros, therazane and such were the old gods... now I can see where the retcon hit and why.


I don't recall this...

Edited by Onimontu on 3/11/2012 4:19 PM PDT
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
This isn't a theory, this is Canon


Bwuh?

Source for the elemental planes affecting old gods at all?
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85 Troll Druid
2945
03/11/2012 04:25 PMPosted by Skytotem
Source for the elemental planes affecting old gods at all?


My bad I misread it

I thought he meant the elementals were imprisoned to keep them away from the old gods, Didn't realize till after that he meant that the elmental planes were also keeping the old gods away from reality.
Edited by Onimontu on 3/11/2012 4:34 PM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
9470
again, just a theory
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