Gurthalak!

100 Human Paladin
12175
For those who can't understand without a visual

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Ultraxion/25H/all/14/60/stddev/#3nv7t

The graph clearly shows one class spiking way above the standard deviation for all classes. No matter what system you happen to be examining, that sort of sudden change in recorded values is indicative of something not working as intended.


I'll admit right here and now that I don't know how raidbots data collection works but...

Wasn't this around the tie that the Seal of Truth glitch gave ret paladins 3908314970 dps?


Spot on.

An unrelated bug massively inflated Ret DPS for about half a day, and that's what's causing the weirdness in that 14-day moving average. Note that the period affected is 14 days, the same as the moving average window and that changing it to a one-week sample period reduces the period affected to 7 days.

The other poster is (hopefully unintentionally) using very bad data to make a point. That data has nothing whatsoever to do with Gurthalak and the topic at hand.

A better graph to use is:
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Ultraxion/25H/all/14/180/p75/#3nv7t
... which shows 75th percentile DPS over a longer period. You can see the rise of Ret up to Jan-1, and then a slow fall followed by a very gradual rise again. Geared, well-played Rets are only recently doing better than they were on Jan-1.

...

I'm sympathising more with Krinu's position now - we've done this to death and we're not saying anything new now. I started reacting to the Warrior earlier, but on reflection, I'm comfortable knowing that random people on the Internet disagree with me on fairly esoteric points of game balance.
Edited by Voronwë on 3/23/2012 4:14 PM PDT
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I love how Paladins are pretending that before the Gurth fix, they weren't breaking meters. You can say It's not fair now, and so and so forth, but don't pretend like you weren't living it up when it happened.

We weren't. Fire, Combat, and Arms were all clearly ahead.
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For those who can't understand without a visual

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Ultraxion/25H/all/14/60/stddev/#3nv7t

The graph clearly shows one class spiking way above the standard deviation for all classes. No matter what system you happen to be examining, that sort of sudden change in recorded values is indicative of something not working as intended.

That's a month after the nerf went in. It's also not a measure of actual performance, which if you check the 75th and upwards percentiles, only just recovers to pre-nerf DPS levels at that time.
Edited by Sharrow on 3/23/2012 4:30 PM PDT
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85 Human Rogue
1630
I was sad because the only melee I could win this sword on was my ret paladin. Didn't even get it until after the nerf, and it always seemed lacklustre.

Then last week I won it on both my Arms Warrior & Death Knight.

Hell !@#$ing yeaaaa so much better. It's nice to actually have 2 or 3 tentacles up at a time!

Out of range from this mob? It's k rend tick procced a tentacle awww sheit

Can't forget dat bladestorm, it's almost a guaranteed tentacle with 3+ mobs (usually multiple)


Consider it payback for Ret being so much better than Warriors in PvP.

No comment on DKs.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
03/23/2012 04:35 PMPosted by Zildjian
Out of range from this mob? It's k rend tick procced a tentacle awww sheit

DoTs do not proc tentacles. Also, Unholy will, on average, have 9% more tentacles than Retribution, and Retribution actually will have MORE tentacles on AoE (Ret's AoE is weapon-based, Unholy's is spell-based) pulls. Unholy simply gets more damage from the tentacles that do spawn.
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7 Orc Shaman
0
I wonder if Rets could miss the point more. Look at your overall DPS... you are competitive and that's all that really matters to Blizz. Carry on.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10520
03/23/2012 05:21 PMPosted by Fedorah
I wonder if Rets could miss the point more. Look at your overall DPS... you are competitive and that's all that really matters to Blizz. Carry on.


No, that's not all that matters.

Fact 1.) Blizzard nerfed Gurthalak for ret and ret only because they claimed that ret recieved too much benefit from the weapon. Warrior received comparable benefit from the sword but were not nerfed.

How is that ok?

Fact 2.) Ret was in no way the best performing spec at the time of the nerf, and yet needed to be nerfed by a hot fix. Specs that were better than ret was THEN have been allowed to stay as such.

How is that ok?

Fact 3.) The nerf happened as a removal of a long standing mechanic (Dating back as far as TBC to my recollection), and then simply saying it was a bug.

How is that ok?

Fact 4.) The blue post said that ret's dps prior to the nerf was too high, and that their dps after the nerf would be where they want rets to be. This indicates that the developers are not ok with ret ever being above average as a dps spec. However, the lack of similar nerfs to the specs that were even better than ret seems to indicate that blizzard IS ok with other specs being above average.

How is that ok?
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
03/23/2012 05:57 PMPosted by Zildjian
No? I'll take your word for it. Only reason I thought it did was because in a heroic a bit ago a tentacle procced next to a mob I was probably 10-15yards away from and hadn't hit anytime recently. Maybe it procced off the mob I was on just far away, for some reason.

There can be a delay between a strike and a tentacle spawning, sometimes as high as 2-3 seconds. Not sure why. This may have been the cause.
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7 Orc Shaman
0
03/23/2012 05:33 PMPosted by Xethorsiph
I wonder if Rets could miss the point more. Look at your overall DPS... you are competitive and that's all that really matters to Blizz. Carry on.


No, that's not all that matters.

Fact 1.) Blizzard nerfed Gurthalak for ret and ret only because they claimed that ret recieved too much benefit from the weapon. Warrior received comparable benefit from the sword but were not nerfed.

How is that ok?

Fact 2.) Ret was in no way the best performing spec at the time of the nerf, and yet needed to be nerfed by a hot fix. Specs that were better than ret was THEN have been allowed to stay as such.

How is that ok?

Fact 3.) The nerf happened as a removal of a long standing mechanic (Dating back as far as TBC to my recollection), and then simply saying it was a bug.

How is that ok?

Fact 4.) The blue post said that ret's dps prior to the nerf was too high, and that their dps after the nerf would be where they want rets to be. This indicates that the developers are not ok with ret ever being above average as a dps spec. However, the lack of similar nerfs to the specs that were even better than ret seems to indicate that blizzard IS ok with other specs being above average.

How is that ok?


You are competitive. All that matters.
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100 Human Paladin
19950
Consider it payback for Ret being so much better than Warriors in PvP.

No comment on DKs.


That's like winning the Special Olympics. If you're not Sub or Feral you might as well forget competitive PvP as melee.
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85 Worgen Warrior
655
03/13/2012 08:31 PMPosted by Deadpoole
Umm yea nice to see the lfr procs 50 times more then the normal version if the normal version even procs that is. I can't tell another blizz fail


It's random
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10520

You are competitive. All that matters.


I don't know why I ever bother to use metaphors but...

If your boss sexually harasses you, is it ok just because you are getting paid well?

Inb4 sexual harassment is totally different than nerfing a weapon.
Inb4 wow is not a job.
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100 Tauren Warrior
19390
03/23/2012 05:57 PMPosted by Zildjian
No? I'll take your word for it.


Dot applications can cause tentacle spawns, but the dot itself cannot.
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03/23/2012 05:21 PMPosted by Fedorah
I wonder if Rets could miss the point more. Look at your overall DPS... you are competitive and that's all that really matters to Blizz. Carry on.

If that is all that matters, they wouldn't have nerfed the Ret-Gurth interaction in the first place.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055

You are competitive. All that matters.


I don't know why I ever bother to use metaphors but...

If your boss sexually harasses you, is it ok just because you are getting paid well?

Inb4 sexual harassment is totally different than nerfing a weapon.
Inb4 wow is not a job.

...maybe stick to simile?
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90 Orc Warrior
4525
what's Warriors' excuse? You know, besides blatant favoritism? They should have removed free Rage from damage a long time ago


1. You answered your own damn question idiot.
2. Its not an excuse. Its the mechanics of the fight.
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90 Orc Warrior
4525
03/23/2012 08:11 AMPosted by Sharrow
The increased proc chance was our mistake, as always, and we apologize for not catching it sooner


They apologized for nerfing you weapon, what more do you need? You're 5th on Ultraxion, with no advantages in any fight and your class only being good at single target, is that not good enough for you? Jesus christ you baby.
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90 Orc Warrior
4525
We see that doing a little above the class median is too high for Paladins, and doing somewhat below it is where we are intended to be. So yes, there is a double-standard, and Paladins did have their Gurth interaction nerfed as a DPS nerf, not as a bug fix, whilst Arms Warriors got to keep their 10%+ DPS from Gurth procs, despite doing silly amounts of damage on almost all fights in DS


No and no. If you are 5th on Ultraxion now after the nerf you could have easily been number 1 without it. Little above the class median? I'd say #1 is a little bit above the class median indeed. They then said they would fix it if it dropped too low. I dont think 5th is too low.

And Arms warriors aren't "keeping" 10%+ dps from gurth. Just because you lost 10% of your gurth damage doesn't mean we are gaining 10%. Ours stayed the same.

And yeeeet again, warriors are doing so well this tier because we have amazing AoE, Cleave, and rage generation in almost all fights in DS. Consider the mechanics of the fight when you compare dps, jesus !@#$.

There's this tool called simcraft. Use it. Arms warrior full t13h =52k. Ret pally? 50k. OMG 2k BELOW BETTER GO TO FORUMS AND QQ NERFS. Do you not see why the nerf was needed now? your single target dps would have been too high without it. They do not balance the game around particular encounters.

You should be QQing your class sucks at AoE, not about the gurth nerf.
Edited by Xubris on 3/24/2012 9:25 AM PDT
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